Would a separate "How I fixed it" sub-forum be useful?

[Mark Hammer]

As membership here grows and the forum develops a reputation as THE place for informed authoritative advice, we've seen a big upsurge in postings re: getting a pedal from non-working to working.  There is the usual sorts of advice members offer, but I wonder if there isn't a use for some sort of compendium of real-life cases that people could browse through as a short cut.  This would not only provide an efficient way to search through all possible solutions, but would reduce the need for folks to keep repeating the same advice, and reduce the number of threads related to simple repairs.  People could still post repair queries, certainly, but I suspect the number would be reduced if folks could find the appropriate cookbook solution quickly.  There is also something to be said for the boost in newbie self-confidence if they can read, deduce, and repair under their own steam, as opposed to being talked through it.  And I suppose there is also something to be said for not having to expose the foolishness of one's building skills (or lack thereof) to the world.

Here's what I'm imagining.

The sub-forum would be essentially a small handful of accumulating threads.  Those could revolve around type/category of effect, level of complexity, or perhaps type of problem.  I'm still undecided. NO mod information is to be located there.  And I mean NONE.  This can only work as intended if it presents functional problems and provides quick solutions that a builder can check off as they go about debugging.

Each thread requests the poster respond to a pre-defined set of specific questions.  A possible template might be something like this:
1 ) What effect is this?
2 ) Is it a build or repair of a commercial pedal?
3 ) If a build, is it PCB, vero, perf, other?
4 ) Before repair, what did the circuit NOT do that it was supposed to do? (e.g., no audible chorus effect, no signal in bypass or effect mode, etc.)
5 ) Before repair, what did the circuit do that it was NOT supposed to do? (e.g., ticking LFO, squeals, did not respond to tone-control changes, etc.)
6 ) What did you do to diagnose the problem? (e.g., what tools/methods did you use?  where did you measure?)
7 ) What was the problem? (e.g., bad solder joint)
8 ) What solved the problem? (e.g., reflowed joint)

Ideally, it would be nice to have a simple data entry template with fields to fill out but that requires software development by our already stretched moderators, and I'm certainly not up to the task, so I think we could start with a simple question-based template for what people would be confined to answering.  (If there is nothing to enter to the question, "N.A." will work just fine.)  Being able to "cut to the chase" would make it possible to find solutions quickly, plus stumble onto things you might not have thought of too.  Unlike an FAQ, the updating would be by users and not fall on the shoulders of the moderators.

What do folks think?  Is this: a) used and useful or merely redundant?  b) workable or destined to be too complicated or confusing?

[alderbody]

I think it is a great idea.

anyone could check that sub-forum and get (at least) a first idea about their problem(s).

i guess this might reduce the ever-growing volume of posts.

[syndromet]

I second that. Being as sloppy as I am, that would be very useful. 

[RedHouse]

What we need are "meta" threads, like the way these guys do it:

http://www.prodigy-pro.com/forum/index.php

See how they have the forums, and there is a link to meta's at the top of the page, check it out.

[burnt fingers]

Mark,

I like the idea.  while the search function is usefull to find threads about a problem you may have with a build it can be overwhelming to sort through threads that may not have anything to do with your particular problem   I searched fuzz face problem and got the equivalent of the contents of the library of congress.  I think this is a great idea.  I hope this happens.  I could certainly post a few "doh!! I forgot to ground the IC." etc..

Scott

[Marcos - Munky]

The idea is very good. Also, if a new sub-forum be created, why not create a few, one for each kind of posts? I mean, one for build reviews, one for mods, one for help questions...

[mikey]

I guess I'll be devil's advocate here.

Speaking as both a forum user and admin it's been my experience that threads tend to get buried in subforums.  Even with the way this forum is setup now I mostly avoid any section other than the main.  It's a great idea to partition things into neat little specific sections if everyone is on the same wavelength but that almost never happens, especially in places this busy.  What starts out as a way to streamline things ends up bloating the forum with seldom used sections and spreads information out instead of consolidating it.

Tonepad has a nice 'build report' section that's been quite helpful to me where people point out a backwards tranny on the layout or what parts they swapped, but that site has the advantage of having those reports in the same place you get the layout for that particular pedal.  I dig the thought of a build / repair report section but I question how practical it is.  Tonepad only has the one place to post the reports.  Here people can spread those kinds of threads in multiple sections leaving things right back where they started.  Another thing is keeping the posts well structured.  You listed some post criteria but trying to get everyone to use that standard isnt gonna be easy.  Look at how many times people post about problems they're having and dont include Q and IC voltages even though there's a sticky thread right there at the top of the first page asking them to. 

I just dont know if this kind of subsectioning would help people troubleshoot more efficiently or just cause forumites to post in a structured manner more inefficiently while users continue to ask questions about identical problems in the main forum.

[Mark Hammer]

I think these are VERY legitimate concerns, and I suspect I have many of them myself.  This is the primary reason why I think strict criteria that encourage brevity, specificity, a minimum of meandering, and easy identification, would be critical to something like this working.  Lord knows people have a hard enough time keeping the main forum and Lounge distinct.  I share your apprehensions about clouding the waters with an additional border/boundary to be ignored.    A software interface that pre-structured what people entered would be ideal, naturally, for limiting what was posted, but as noted that presupposes someone being brave and generous enough to volunteer that investment of time.

In the spirit of "measure twice, cut once", though, if something like this were to be considered as useful by a big enough quorum of people, I'm all for assessing the various drawbacks and caveats, so that if it IS launched, it is launched thoughtfully and properly in a way that assures long-term viability

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

[petemoore]

  One could almost go as far as to have a 'fill in the blanks' sort of like contact info is done...blank windows indicating what info is required.
  There is very little use for 'amatuer debugging' info...other than a wire falling off where it's obvious it went, 'classic debugging techniques' are the only real tellers of 'what's what' and 'what isn't what'.
  'Why won't it' Posts with 90% missing info, [no schematic, no battery supply reading...no voltages, unknown transistor type] would become a thing of the past...
  90% of debugging becomes '*useless' except for the fact that what's found as 'right' can be eliminated from problem searches...ie all that stuff HAS to be right, eliminating any of it from debugging attention allows for inneffective/incomplete debugging. It's all necessarily *important...finding where the problems 'aren't' shows where they/it still could be.
  RG's 'what to do' post shows most every debug 'way', but relies on the individual to follow instructions and fill in the blanks...time consuming...somethings you'll be doing anyway to get 'it' fixed...
  There are times when filling in all 'blanks' is unnecessarily redundant and time consuming for the typist and reader, say when a circuit is working properly, but when a box or switch is tried...

[lowstar]

i personally don´t like the idea that much. i always get the info i need on anything by using the search function, and i like the fact that logging on here every day, i see threads going by about this pedal and that pedal, and i get curious and check them out, and sometimes i can chime in cause i know an answer, or i learn something because of somebody else´s. if that info would be in a sub-forum, i know i would not check it out that much.
plus,if you would search for something, you´d have to do it 2 times i guess,once on one forum, then on the other.

cheers,
lowstar

[sta63bmx]

Even if it's not a subforum, I would recommend asking people put some kind of "control terms" in the original post or something so that they can be found easily.  I mean, "fuxx face" will turn up a million hits and so will "fuzz face repair" but something like "fuzz face repair rumpelstiltskin debug" wouldn't turn up many hits.  Like ask people to include some specific phrases or something that doesn't typically occur in posts?

[O]

Taking sta63bmx's idea a bit further... How about starting a thread for the pedal that is in need of repair (i.e. Repair: Boss DD-3). Anything that has to do with that pedal and how to repair it/how it was repaired should go in that thread. It would also be helpful to allow schem inclusions as long as they are within the rules. Probably a sub forum similar to the newbie forum would help a lot.

From a programmer/database guru wannabe/webmaster perspective, everytime the search function is used, a query is being sent to the database; thus taxing the bandwith and the servers.

Ok, back on topic... I think the Fix-it forum is a great idea and if done right, it has a lot of potential.

[Peter Snowberg]

It's been interesting to watch the increase of traffic here over the past couple years. Historically, it's been a bad move to segment forums into too many pieces because they tend to loose momentum and fall apart. The idea of a "repair" forum sounds like a good one, but repair posts often turn very quickly into modification posts and it gets really hard to sort that stuff after a while.

If everybody followed O's advice and put something like "Repair:" in front of their title, it would make things very simple and clean. Unfortunately posts happen regularly where the title leaves us with no clue as to what's inside the post.

I'll be watching this thread closely.

Thanks everyone!

[rockhorst]

Isn't it possible to make a sub-SUB forum? So to make it part of this section of the board? I've seen that being done once or twice.

[Mark Hammer]

'How DO I fix it?" may provide an answer, but then it may not.  That's the problem: it is not likely to be a source of information that resulted in a happy ending.  I'm aiming for something that consists ONLY of effective troubleshooting and problem-resolution, so that a person could sift through postings and see in no uncertain terms that 60% of all postings for that type of circuit (making up a number here) involved identifying a cold solder joint, and another 30% were reorienting the semiconductor with accurate pinout information.  Obviously if the listing of resolved problems does not lead the poster to a happy ending, or if their particular circuit is not well-represented in that sub-forum (remember, these would accumulate over time, so everything would be poorly represented at first) they have the absolute unqualified right to post their dilemma here and ask "What should I do?  I tried X, Y, and Z and they didn't work.".  THEN, once it is fixed, I think they have somewhat of an ethical obligation to the community to go to the other sub-forum,and report on how they ended up fixing it.  If they want to give credit to someone for helping them out, fine.  No big song and dance required or lengthy history of all the troubles they went through in trouble-shooting.  Just a quick and dirty summary that indicates "it did this, and I fixed it by doing that"; i.e., "punch lines" only.

All that aside, I cannot begin to stress enough how important and useful followup from people here can be.  Their description of the problem is only half the task.  What helps everyone else out most is hearing back and finding out that they had a transistor turned around the wrong way and everything worked flawlessly once the device was reinstalled poperly, or that the hjack was shorting out against a pot or the chassis and once it was rotated 60 degrees it all worked out fine, or that there was a small solder bridge not noticed at first.  People want a compendium of things they can do that have a known track record of success.

[sfr]

I think it could be very useful, if it goes forward as a board that's a compendium of "how I fixed it" info as opposed to another board to get lost in.  Personally, I'd *love* to have lists of voltages of working pedals - I'm not always smart enough to figure out what my voltage *should* be at different pins on the board, but if I know what it's supposed to be, I can usually track down a problem related to that.  Seems like some pedals, I just can't find the complete pin voltages of a working unit if someone else hasn't asked first. 

I used to post here somewhat regularly, and read religiously, maybe two years ago?  Three?  I don't hit this place up as often as used to (guitar building started to take more of my time than pedal building, and I only have so much internet time to spread around)  Part of why I don't come by as often is the shear volume of posts; sometimes if you don't come by in a few days or a week it feels like you miss everything.  It's also frustrating seeing a post pushed off the main page and forgotten if you post at particular times of night.  (Particularly if it's pushed off by a bunch of questions I feel are easy to figure out - but nothing against those folks or anything.) 

But that said, I still come here continually whenever I have problems, and 9 times out 10 find the answers I need, or something to kick me in the right direction.  I just don't post very often.  Whenever I have the time, I find myself reading and reading through here.  I'm always so inspired.  I just don't post very often, because I don't have much to add right now, and I can't always keep up on things.   But I think that's something to take into consideration - there have got to be a lot of people here like me, who "lurk".   I actually know at least one or two people in my town who get the answers they need for their pedal work here, and don't have accounts. 

So the point of my rambling (sorry, just woke up) is that something like Mark proposes could be very useful to the lurker.  And I bet there are more of those then we realize.

[RedHouse]

Did ya go look at the meta's I pointed out, it's exactly what we are looking for without creating sub-forums.

It's a link page that links to the relative posts.

[Gilles C]

Too many sub-forums make it harder to follow everything. I normally prefer a main forum where I go, and often "forget" about the other subs.

I saw that happen with some other forum(s), and wouldn't like it to happen here.

But just another sub-forum as you suggested would be ok. That would be the place to learn a special kind of information.

Gilles

[Peter Snowberg]

What we need are "meta" threads, like the way these guys do it:

http://www.prodigy-pro.com/forum/index.php

See how they have the forums, and there is a link to meta's at the top of the page, check it out.

Good call.

Meta-threads are a great way to go, but as with all indexes, it takes people who want to volunteer the energy to accumulate the info. I started a couple of similar threads for the digital section, but have yet to fill them.

We do have our Wiki, which could get a whole lot more use. The Wiki allows anybody to help in making indexes and there isn't any reason individuals couldn't also have their own "favorites" sections as well.

Anybody who would like a Wiki account can just PM me and I'll make you one.

[sta63bmx]

Are there like wiki stubs for different pedals?