Building for profit vs. Charging for labor & time. What's the difference?

[skiraly017]

I will preface this post with the following. I'm not looking to violate anyone's copyrighted material, nor am I thinking about it. This question came to me while sitting in traffic and I was curious to see what others thought about this.

I completely understand that if I were to build a pedal using someone elses layout and sell it at fill in the blank without the designer's permission is wrong. I get it. But what if someone asks you to build a pedal based on someone's design? I don't see any problem with charging them for parts but what about labor? What's the difference between making a profit and charging for my time and effort?

In the immortal words of David St. Hubbens, "It's a fine line between clever and stupid".

[nag hammadi]

seems like the general idea is that  it is okay to sell pedals using someone else's board (etc) as long as they are okay with it.   ggg is cool with it.  they stll make the $ off the board sale, and it still has jd's name on it for anyone to read anytime they change their battery.

it think it depends on how you go about it, what you say about it, and on what scale it is taken to.

i sell some of the pedals i make at my local store.  i give them silly names, and i don't pretend to have invented anything. 

i am not re-inventing the wheel, just making really good wheels with the best available parts. 

other people seem to find that worth their hard earned money, and they like supporting the local guy.

sure they could buy all the stuff and solder it together.  then again, i am sure i could learn to rebuild my transmission, but am i? 

i look at is as being a builder, not a designer.  i don't pretend to have designed anything, although i HEAVILY modify the circuits i build.  in fact they end up VERY different from the circuit on the layout. 

what is wrong with that?  it is a cool job!

[skiraly017]

I know that GGG as well as other people have licensing agreements. What I'm taking about is John Doe asks me to build Mark Hammer's The Crank (This is a "for example only". I am not building The Crank for anyone). Can I ethically charge Mr. Doe for time and labor?

[nag hammadi]

how YOU feel about it?

i think it matters what theirs is based on as well.

[sfr]

I don't do this very often, but the few times I have, if there's not a specific statement regarding this on the website where I found the layout, I usually just send an email to person who did the layout, let them know the situation and ask them if they'd like something in return.  Nobody's had a problem with it yet, but if I ever start travelling, I better bring beer money, because I've promised a few people I'd buy 'em a round.

I think if you're building something that's an widely known-schematic (a fuzz face or something) and you're making your own layout for the boards, then just go ahead.  But if I ever use a design by a particular person (Like something mister Hammer designed, for example) or a layout already made, (like the PDF files at GGG and Tonepad) I like to ask first.

[skiraly017]

But if I ever use a design by a particular person (Like something mister Hammer designed, for example) or a layout already made, (like the PDF files at GGG and Tonepad) I like to ask first.

I most certainly would ask first and I hope that someone would extend the same courtesy to me. Now all I have to do is come up with a layout.

[KerryF]

I would say that its fine to do it with pedals such as vintage and big company pedals.  Making a tubescreamer to sell for a profit should be fine because the information is easily available on the web.  Marshall posts their schematics free so they arent keeping it a secret.  The Fuzz Face is made by many companies who claim to use the same circuitry and they arent getting in trouble.  However, I think if you take a layout designed by a person and build it to sell, that is wrong.  Also boutique companies such as Zvex and Alf Hermidia with the Zen Drive and Mosferatu, shouldnt be sold.  They are trying hard to make a living by selling pedals, and if you do it for them selling them cheaper, you are competition on a pedal THEY designed.  I think selling major manufactored pedals is fine though, you are using your own parts and all.

[Stephen]

It is my feelings if you post a scheme it is fair game as far as labor and costs...Now to make claim of the scheme that is different...If you had a scheme and you wanted to make money WHY would you post it?    Sell IT!!!......Now I have built tons of fuzzes of many types and sold them at the price it cost me...I didnt steal a scheme it was there on the web!!   NOT really I have many derivatives of fuzzes no real sheme copies..But if you did why are they posted for you to build and build and build ...eventually you need to get rid of some......Why not sell them did the scheme do the work?
There are many Fulltone ,  Way Huge etc...that are basic designs that are on the net and they have made tons I MEAN thousands of dollars with these schemes...AMZ now sells his stuff..GOOD IDEA ..If you want to make money on your Ice cream truck....do you leave it open for all the kids to steal or better yet who's design of a creamsiscle are you selling??
Reverse engineering is stealing........if you sell them at a profit.......but as I have said the big names all have!!!!

Why does Ibanez have the tube screamer and Boss have the SD-1 .. it is all fair game to a sense if you change one part ..right..  

Sell your pedals make some money for your effort.....Does Henry Ford sue everyone using an assembly line....does framing a print at a framing shop sue you for hanging it on the wall.......the painter that is!

I would think that to make money fairly in this business LIKE BOSS you need to innovate ...grow ...design new stuff all the time ...the same old same old...... is OLD ..right
You cant hold a ripe banana forever, design, create, sell

[Paul Marossy]

It all boils down to copyright. Using another's PCB layout is making use of someone else's copyrighted material. I see no huge moral/ethical/legal issues building one pedal using one of these sorts of PCB layouts for a friend, at cost. If you were using that layout to sell 100 pedals and making a good profit, that's different - and that is breaking the rules if you're not doing under license.

[RaceDriver205]

Aye, set your own 'line', but charging your mate what ever you want for the pedal your making him is not crossing the line. Doesn't matter how much you profit, just set a good price so he actually wants to buy it.

[Processaurus]

Theres been much discussion of this kind of thing, I just wanted to add the thought that charging for labor = profiting.  I would see no moral issue with charging a good friend for parts only for any DIY (or commercial) design that I would make for myself, since thats what you'd charge yourself (in a sense) to make it.  Charging for labor though, is no longer DIY to me, its employing yourself, so I would work something out with the designer and/or pcb layout artist since their work is making it possible for you to profit.  For little stuff and one offs, maybe get whoever would potentially be buying your pedal off you to give you a bit extra to make a donation to the site or designer where you got the design/layout.  Respecting productive minds (especially those that have published their work publicly for people to DIY) is the only way for new and unique work to emerge.  If that doesn't happen they'll stop coming around.

[$uperpuma]

I agree with trying to aquire a license if you are going to build and sell someone else's work.  Just because they are producing the pedals themselves, doesn't mean they shouldn't get credit for their time and work in the designing.  Most of the popular boutique circuits that are not clones have familiar names attatched to them.  Contact the deisgners and work something out. Perpetuate the level of respect we have here, and help setup a positive legacy, so that people will give YOU YOUR fair share in a few years when you come up with a design that the guys and gals on this board can't live without.

[markm]

Let's put it in a diferent perspective,
If you have a friend who is a jeweler, would you expect HIM to give YOU a diamond ring for Nothing?
He may cut you a deal but to do it for nothing is just out of the question and, expecting a bit too much of your friendship don'tcha think?
Ever notice how many "friends" you can accumulate when you have something they want??
Start fixing guitars and amps and build some effects and pretty soon, all of 'em are your buddies!
I view this subject of making or selling effects pretty much the same way.
I have yet to sell anything I have made mainly because I get very "attached" to these little electronic creations and I'm not in this to sell
effects, just purely in it for the fun and quite frankly, I have made some of the best effects I have ever owned in my life because of this site.
The best part is I did it myself and in some sense, they are unique.
Let's face it though, Most, not ALL but, MOST musicians don't have the skills needed to even attempt doing a DIY effect......how many guitar players don't even adjust their own truss rod?? 

[Stephen]

that is very convincing MarkM...

Did you know Tom Sholtz lead guitarist from BOSTON was an electronics genius...I need not name his creations , but what you say is true!!!

Musicians are very ..how do you say it ,frail people .....Not all PLEASE.. but many cant even light there own cigarette without burning themselves....could you see them with a soldering gun!!

When I show my fuzzes to them they look and look and say you built that, HUH........I share my work maybe I shouldnt but I sell and give it away....I am not rich or should I be, yet the look on a musicians face when you hand them a booster drive pedal that looks unique....VERY fullfillimg!!!

[nag hammadi]

the two people i get boards from - ggg (sleep), and byoc (keith), have both made it clear that it is okay to buy their boards and use them in this manner for fun or profit.

it is a sticky area, with a lot of variables. 

i can only speak for myself by saying that if jd and keith are okay with this setup, then i am too.  and if someone wants to pay me to assemble some parts, i am will do it.  it beats the SNOT out of assembling burgers.

[goosonique]

I will preface this post with the following. I'm not looking to violate anyone's copyrighted material, nor am I thinking about it. This question came to me while sitting in traffic and I was curious to see what others thought about this.

I completely understand that if I were to build a pedal using someone elses layout and sell it at fill in the blank without the designer's permission is wrong. I get it. But what if someone asks you to build a pedal based on someone's design? I don't see any problem with charging them for parts but what about labor? What's the difference between making a profit and charging for my time and effort?

In the immortal words of David St. Hubbens, "It's a fine line between clever and stupid".

First avoid sitting in traffic ...makes you mad !!
Secondly ...if its an obselete vintage that needs to be cloned ...why not ( we are not talkin mass production here)
I usually reject request on clone for current pedals....its stupid anyway !!

[RaceDriver205]

If you have a friend who is a jeweler, would you expect HIM to give YOU a diamond ring for Nothing?
He may cut you a deal but to do it for nothing is just out of the question and, expecting a bit too much of your friendship don'tcha think?

Er, not the same really mark. A diamond ring is a physical object which only one person can posess. A lay/schem is an 'object of information', which many can posess.

First avoid sitting in traffic ...makes you mad !!

Damn Straight! ARGH! Why cant they just make bigger roads in the first place! Did it not occur to them that, "hey, maybe there will be more people in the future!".
I want to drive a bulldozer to uni, or something powerfull equipped with a snow-plow.

[burnt fingers]

I don't see why you would worry about making money on something you funded the parts for and put the time and effort into building.  So you used someone elses layout, maybe just the pcb transfer.  You etched your own board, which you also funded out of your pocket.  So all of that cost and time and somone thinks you don't have the right to make money off of it.  WRONG!

Give em props for the layout, maybe send em a buck or two but don't worry about it. 

OR........

Make your own layouts for everything and don't sweat it.

I have put a few layouts in the gallery and I did so willingly and knowing full well that anyone can copy the layout.  So be it.  That just means they'll build a solid pedal. 

If there were a ton of money to be made off of this stuff everyone would be doing it.  I think we're all adults here and mutual respect should prevail but hindering someone from making money on something they built is not right. 

Let's take this a step further.  John doe makes a cool pcb layout for a Dist+.  Joe blow makes a pedal based on that layout and sells it to me.  So you're telling me that Joe blow doesn't deserve my cash cuz John doe made a layout of an MXR pedal. 

What about MR. Dunlop then.  Poor Jim is the producuer of that particular curcuit.

Food for thought.
Scott

[rockhorst]

Well, for starters, the difference between profit and charging for labour+parts: the latter is what it costs YOU, the former is everything you would charge that is MORE than it cost YOU. For a friend who wants a simple little box (nothing complicated or hush-hush technology) you could consider charging parts and a small fee for your time. I'd say that in most cases would amount to a total of $50 or so. I don't think you'd have to have a big moral problem with that, as long as it's all in the name of good fun. It would be even better if you can 'exchange'. For instance 'you build me a decent road worthy pedal board, and I build you this fuzz'.

On the subject of simple clean boosts like LPB-1 or similar circuits: those are schoolbook examples (literally!) of transistors/FETs as amplifiers. Any college text on electronics/electricity I've seen has it in there. So there's definetely no moral problem there if you ask me.

[markm]

If you have a friend who is a jeweler, would you expect HIM to give YOU a diamond ring for Nothing?
He may cut you a deal but to do it for nothing is just out of the question and, expecting a bit too much of your friendship don'tcha think?

Er, not the same really mark. A diamond ring is a physical object which only one person can posess. A lay/schem is an 'object of information', which many can posess.

Okay.
What if your hobby is doing paint by numbers paintings and someone wants to buy one.....! 
I guess my point is, expecting super cut prices because of friendship in some cases is absurd.
It depends on what it is however, with that said, there are many many people today who would rather just PAY the price for what they want rather than learn and do for themselves.
I see it everyday at my job. People will pay 25 dollars to have someone change their wiper blades rather than do it themselves.
Strange 
In terms of guitar effects, if their going to give up the dough, why not give it to someone they know rather than a complete stranger.
It's that element of trust!