Vero concern

[Ken]

G'day all,

I do use some of the vero layouts posted in the gallery but,..... it has

occured to me that we may end up with  a whole generation of people that can't read schematics

let alone diagnose from said schematics.

Don't get me wrong I love being able to just print and build.......I'm not doing my own as often.

Do you know what I mean?

Cheers Ken. 

Ps Aron or Pete,

if this should be in the Lounge please move the post .........TA.

[Dragonfly]

why does it occur to you that vero = inability to read schematics ?  or let alone pcb or perfboard layouts = inability to read schemo's ?

from what i've seen, many times beginners will build a pedal or two from a layout, and THEN start asking the "how's it work" and "where can i find info " questions...so basically, a little success in a build is all thye needed to pique their interest.

besides...many times a layout will actually be the thing that causes the "light bulb moment" for someone trying to understand schematics....

thats my $.02 anyway.

AC

[Ken]

Dragonfly,

I'm probably thinking out loud in that vero layouts are sort of paint by numbers, and as I said are great

getting people into building.

Long story short.....

I used to smoke but outside....so I would take a schematic that I wanted to build with me and work out the layout in my head

every time I went outside and eventually be able to build it on stripboard with out predrawing it........

I'm probably just having abit of a rant.

I'm not assuming most people that use the layouts can't read schematics...I'm sorry vif thats how it sounded.

Cheers Ken

[reverberation66]

         I only started building pedals back in march or so.  When I built the first ones I didn't have stripboard but I used the layouts to learn how to wire pots, DPDT switches, etc.  I didn't really understand schematics at all but I would try to compare the layout to the schematic, etc. to help me figure it all out.  I've since built a bunch of stuff on stripboard but lately prefer perfboard for smaller builds.  Often  I just perf stuff straight from the schematic.   I think those stripboard layouts are a good way for a beginner to get a visual sense of what's going on and as one's knowledge and skills increase they'll naturally want to learn more and move on to more challenging stuff...that's my 2 cents worth. 

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I think the best way to get new people into DIY, is for them to actually build something that works.. then they are hooked & likely to want ot learn the theory!
So, I'm all for "painting by numbers" for beginners! I know in my own case, I only really got into FX building after I started to build.
And if people DO want to build & not learn any theory.. I'm OK with that! But, i'm prepared to say that as they try to debug stuff, they are going to learn some theory , whetehr they intended to or not! At least schematic reading.

[MikeH]

I understood how to read a schematic long before I ever tried to build a pedal.  And realistically, when it came to learning how to build pedals, that wasn't what was helpful; what was helpful was someone else showing you step by step exactly how one of these things comes together.  And having an easy medium to work on: enter the vero board.  And afterward when the builder asks himself "why in the hell does this thing work?" (or not work, in some cases) then he turns to the schematic to really undestand it.

[MetalGod]

I think the info on the web now is amazing - when I first started building pedals there were no layout sites so I had to do my own from the schematic. 

I think that being able to read a schematic is important (to me) and I actually prefer to have a schem rather than building blind from a veroboard layout.

[pedaltastic]

I've only been building pedals very recently, and I am so impatient with my 56k  modem that I never even knew of the existence of vero layouts on the net, so my first two pedals - a fuzz face and tychobrahe octavia - were done fresh from a schematic diagram and not from vero layouts and they both work well. I worked out the vero layout from the circuit diagram with my limited knowledge and it worked! It was a good learning experience.

I generally use vero layouts now so that I can concentrate on making a quality pedal that will last a long time and take plenty of drops onto the floor than focus too much on worrying whether it will work in the first place or not because I've wrongly transferred the circuit to vero. Having said that I think it's very useful indeed to be able to understand the circuit diagrams.

[Gilles C]

I always worked in electronics, so it is not my case, but I really think that building stripboards is a good way to get interested, and begin to understand how things work.

You learn from doing it, a bit at a time.

It's the same with computers. You don't have to know how it's built inside to use one. But that's how some people started to get interested and began to learn.

And for those who just want to build something without learning the details, it's also perfect.

Gilles

[dosmun]

I personally like vero but always have a schematic.. If you have to troubleshoot a schematic is a must for me so I can see whats going on..

[StephenGiles]

I have been building on veroboard since 1973 or so. I can read circuits very well thank you very much.

[aron]

I see Ken's point. I thought similar things before... That's why the beginner project is the way it is. Schematic first, then layout on perf.

Anyway it's all good. As long as people get into it.

[Dragonfly]

As long as people get into it.

amen, brother aron...amen !

[TheBigMan]

Dunno if I'm representative or not  but I started doing vero layouts for myself because I generally only build one of something, and ordering PCBs for a bunch of one-ofs gets expensive.  The size of circuit I was generally interested in translated esily onto small pieces of vero so that was the obvious solution.  Pad per hole perf is pretty much non existent in the UK too.

Definitely with Paul too - many people will instantly chuck the hobby if their first few builds don't work.  If using an "idiot's guide" or whatever (Aron's beginner project being another good example) gets them into it by giving them something that works then that's a good thing.  Most people will then want to do something more complex.

[lumpymusic]

I see Ken's point...

I do to. I personally don't care vor vero images. I'd rather
see a schematic. The vero diagrams are sort of like guitar
TAB compared to standard notation. Rather than knowing
that "The 3rd hole is connected to the 4th hole" I'd rather
see "The .01 cap is connected to the base of Q1".

I don't know if it CONTRIBUTES to people not being able
to read schematics. But if there's a vero posted, I'd like
to see a schematic posted along with it. Otherwise,
I'll typically either skip it, find the schematic or take
the time to draw my own.

Lumpy

[Toney]

Lordy...talk about a moot point!

Vero is one of many of the tools available to us who DIY.

You wanna learn to understand schems?.... Get a piece of paper and draw up your own vero layouts from the schem. You'll learn to understand schems really fast and it's very good brain gymnastics.

It's a real trick to design a functional, compact Vero layout. Of course those that do want to share their good work with others.

What's the "concern"

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

What's the "concern"

I'm with you on that, Toney..

The more vero projects the better.
The more PCB layouts the better.
The more schematics the better.
The more people "shutting up & playing their guitar" the better 

I guess there is a kind of path, first using commercial FX, then copying vero layout, then learning some electronics, maybe etching PCBs, then modding or adapting to make one's "own" pedal..... where people end on the path, and where they are most comfortable, is up to them. It's the same in all endeavours in life.

[markm]

I've spent many hours in the last couple of months messing around with schematics and layouts and I have to say that sometimes reading the schem, then looking at how it all fits into a layout really is helpful in understanding the big picture, at least for me.
The two seem to go hand in hand....like playing guitar, reading tab and reading music. It all intertwines.
I may not be a layout King yet, but I'm much farther ahead than I was 6 months ago as far as my understanding of schematics.
I don't care for vero but, that's a whole different story! 

[mjones99]

schems I know, (yeah)! terminal strip layout, I know, eyelet board layout I know, vero is not as easy as those two, to me, but I think its easier than perf to get working right from someone elses layout. really I have been thinkin of gettin a pop rivet gun and making mini eyelet board with G10 for my amp sim pedals so it gets wired the exact same way as the real amp. hey it could only ADD mojo right?

[oldrocker]

I never use vero not that I have anything against it.  I have an easier time getting perf.  I look at the schem and start perfing.  To be honest I haven't built a vero project yet.  I want to some day but right now I'm content just perf boarding.  I only used perf layouts a couple of times. (Professor Tweed, Condor).  Mostly I build circuits as I go.  I haven't had any effect totally not work yet.  I was always able to debug it sooner or later.
IMHO vero is similar to breadboarding which I do alot by the way.  You have to think a little differently then just building a circuit like the schematic layout.  With both those two formats the circuit ends up looking quite different then the orginal schem layout.  Like your using the left side of the brain instead of the right when doing vero board as opposed to perf.  It's just an opinion not scientific fact by any means.  I see where Ken is coming from.   I get a good feeling knowing I built the circuits the hard way with no layout and no shortcuts.  Just reading the schem and building the circuit.