Distortion + -vs- DS1 for Marshall-type sound?

[_tom_]

Just to start off, I'm new here and new to modding pedals, so hello 

Basically, I'm on a quest to find a Marshall-flavoured overdrive/distortion box that I can run onto the clean/slighty breaking up clean channel of my Fender hot rod deluxe, and have heard that the Dist + and DS1 are kinda similar.

The kinda sounds I'm after are the sounds of the following bands - Accept, Van Halen, GnR, Motley Crue, Dio etc, that classic Marshall old school hard rock/metal tone.

Someone on another forum recommended a modded Dist + (caps and diodes changing) for a Marshall kinda flavour, to thicken it up a bit etc. Does anyone else agree with this? Maybe some clips would help me decide The one on the Dunlop/MXR site actually sounds pretty good, could do with some thickening up and more of a "liquid" kinda sound though imho.

I've read that the DS1 also does a good Marshall impression onto a clean amp, just not sure which to buy off ebay to then mod! I've searched around and found some modded DS1 clips by melanhead which sound pretty good to me.

Cheers for any help

[ildar]

I believe those clips were recorded with a DS-1 into a Marshall amp.
Rather than buying and modding, consider building a Thunderchief http://www.runoffgroove.com/thunderchief.html or BSIAB2 http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=178
I can speak from experience about the TC, very Marshally, it's based on a 100w Marshall Super Lead. The BSIAB I've heard only from clips around here, but also very Marshall sounding, seems to have higher gain than the TC.

[_tom_]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Do you think the Thundercheif would be a hard pedal for a first time builder? I have limited electronics experience, all I've done is re-wire my strat. I was thinking modding a few pedals first may make building one from scratch a lot easier later on.

Also the Thundercheif clips make it sound a bit harsh, its not smooth and full enough for my taste, is it an easy enough task to change some of the clipping diodes to give it a smoother and warmer sound?

Thanks again

[ildar]

If you're not experienced, then maybe it is a better idea to mod a few pedals first, an even better idea is to build some simple circuits to get a feel for things.
The Thunderchief clips were recorded using a SS amp, which lends to the harshness, imo. There are no diodes, the clipping occurs from driving the JFETs in the circuit. I don't find mine to be harsh, and I built it spot-on stock. There are always changes that you could make, but this circuit requires setting bias for the JFETs, and any change may affect the ease in which you can achieve that.

[_tom_]

Oh right ok, thanks for that. I take it to bias/build pedals with JFETs I'd need a digital multimeter? Do the pedal kits from OLC come with full instructions?

I think I will start with modding some pedals first, then build a byoc tri-boost or something then do something more complex.

Question is, which pedal to mod for that Marshallish sound 

[GibsonGM]

Hi Tom, welcome to the world of building 100's of pedals, not getting the sound you're searching for, but loving them all anyway!  lol.   I started off building regular electronics stuff...timers with LED's, small radios, etc.  Then moved into this maybe 2 yrs ago.  I think modding pedals is just as hard as building them, IMHO.   There's a tendency to not get all the parts back where they should go....that said, you WILL get results very quickliy that way and will learn - just pick something you got cheap & don't care about!    If you can rewire a guitar, you can learn all about this stuff (be sure to look thru the forum, the FAQ's, and beginner pages!).

I use a HRDx myself, with a Les Paul.   I know what you mean about the drive channel for some uses ;o)  My sound is a Dist+ into the clean channel, which is easy, and could be modded to have tone controls to drop the mids and get that fat but crisp brown sound.  I easily get old Mountain, BOC, Molly Hatchett, GNR sounds, which is pretty close to what you seem to like.  I cannot get that using the yellow/red channels on that amp!   Maybe borrow a dist. pedal and try the clean channel to get an idea of where you want to go.

Just my 2 cents; have fun, learn, (get a digital mulit meter) and you will be slapping together some awesome gear in no time!     

[powerplayj]

Actually, I recommended (from the other forum) the Dist+ as a decent Marshall type distortion for the 1st time builder.  Yes, you will need a multimeter for the BSIAB2 or Thunderchief in order to bias it correctly.  Of course, if you run into problems with even the easier builds you'll want a meter to help diagnose the problem.  

I think the DS-1 is a love/hate pedal like the Rat and can be totally dependent on your amp as well.  I hated it with my Peavey Classic as it did not sound musical at all.  The good thing is the pedal is cheap and readily available such that you can go to a local store and try it out (possibly with a HRD that is also in the store).  Same thing goes for the Dist+.  Buy the one you like, read up on the mods and learn what each mod does to the tone, experiment.

[_tom_]

I use a HRDx myself, with a Les Paul.   I know what you mean about the drive channel for some uses ;o)  My sound is a Dist+ into the clean channel, which is easy, and could be modded to have tone controls to drop the mids and get that fat but crisp brown sound.  I easily get old Mountain, BOC, Molly Hatchett, GNR sounds, which is pretty close to what you seem to like.  I cannot get that using the yellow/red channels on that amp!   Maybe borrow a dist. pedal and try the clean channel to get an idea of where you want to go.

I have a similar setup, LP into the HRDx, and agree that the drive channels are pretty crap:icon_lol:

Is that a stock Dist+ you have? Ive read somewhere that it'll get the Randy Rhoads Crazy Train tone, which worries me as that sounds thin and buzzy to my ears

Cheers for all the help so far guys

[petemoore]

  Hey Tom !!! Welcome to the Forum !!!
  Oh right ok, thanks for that. I take it to bias/build pedals with JFETs I'd need a digital multimeter?
  If you want electronic help, including self help, You'll have a DMM...worth every penny X 10+.
   Do the pedal kits from OLC come with full instructions?
  Haven't tried one...but haft to say 'sort of' at best, the 'real' instructions come with the multi-meter, and are texts @ places like GEO and AMZ shown above and in Links !
  A Dist+ supposeldy was used on Zep Albums...not that this is a 'qualifier' necessarily...but I like them...I had an Ochre MXR Dist+ for about 15 years, it worked great for me until the day it was stolen off the stage in Houston's 'The Alley' bar. Great box just Distorts and Boosts, uses the same board as the DOD OD 250...I think it does a great job alone, then goes into heavier sounding clipping when I kik a booster on before it, even after it...yer basic Distorter that Distorts the way I want it to after a couple mods..should do a good job on a HRDx.
  If, if and the other if's...but it appears you have a nice amp 'n guitar..
  I'm using FF, BMP, DIST+, and a little Amp Emulator called Prof. Tweed into my 5e3's [Tweed Deluxes]...sorting out what's right for you...takes a touch of engineering, I would recommend self engineering [why shouldn't you also be burdened with 'the 'Uncontrollable Building Disease']...seein' how's we're on Aron's Stompbox Forum !!!
  Welcome to Heavenly tones and Hellish Debugs !!!
  You will want/ need to read about recent newbie debugs, there's one on the Mosfet Boost Build Problem, a couple FF's...then...READ RG's "Debugging, What to do when it doesn't work", then GEO...then do some more linking and reading, these texts are what explains circuit dissection and component functions...the meat and potatoes EE Schtuff we all must *get into, try to get 'around' or try to get through. Might as well get into reading.
 

[Rafa]

Yesterday I tried my MXR+ with my teachers marshall (transistors not tube), and with some tone arangements it sounded pretty close, I used to own a DS-1 but didnt liked much its just another generic distortion. Thats just my opinion, all stompboxes sound really differentt in different amplifiers, if you want to listen to the MXR+
I have a soundclip at my website


http://www.geocities.com/rafa23189

or there are some good soundclips at

http://www.pisotones.com

there a guy tried it with different diodes

[MikeH]

I modded a DS-1 with Monte Allums "Rectifier mod plus" which was supposed to give it a dual-rectifier kind of sound, but I think it actually came out sounding very marshally (is that a word? it is now) and it just might be the sound you're looking for.  Either way, it sounds way better than the stock pedal.  The mod was reasonably priced and it came with all the parts too.  You can find them on ebay, or on his website; www.monteallums.com.  There's mp3s on there too.

[_tom_]

I modded a DS-1 with Monte Allums "Rectifier mod plus" which was supposed to give it a dual-rectifier kind of sound, but I think it actually came out sounding very marshally (is that a word? it is now) and it just might be the sound you're looking for.  Either way, it sounds way better than the stock pedal.  The mod was reasonably priced and it came with all the parts too.  You can find them on ebay, or on his website; www.monteallums.com.  There's mp3s on there too.

Sounds good to me! Theres so many options hhaha its a pain in the arse to pick one. Another thing I was thinking about was getting an SD-1 and modding that to open it up a bit then use it together with the Keeley rat I have for a higher gain sound, the Rat to me has a kinda british flavour to it anyway so it may just be the case of layering with another overdrive.

[powerplayj]

Is that a stock Dist+ you have? Ive read somewhere that it'll get the Randy Rhoads Crazy Train tone, which worries me as that sounds thin and buzzy to my ears

Cheers for all the help so far guys

Dist+ tones depends on the diodes used.  Si and Ge seem fizzy while the LED's have a more "amp-like" distortion

[Mark Hammer]

Important to distinguish between what extracts a given tone from an amplifier because of how it shapes/colours the signal AND because of what its output level does to the amp, vs what simply creates a given tone on its own (and would do so even if you plugged it into a tape deck, cell phone, or headphone amp).

The Dist+ does not have heaps of output level.  It DOES apply enough gain to the signal to produce pleasing clipping, but because of how the clipping works, and the absence of any additional gain *after* the clipping, the resulting output does not push amplifiers nearly as hard as some other pedals do.

A number of folks here have experimented with using LEDS instead of the germanium diodes that are normally found in a Dist+.  These do not clip nearly as hard as the Ge diodes (or even as hard as Si diodes), but because they let more signal out of the pedal, they are capable of pushing the amplifier harder, such that more harmonic content is extracted from the amp.  Sometimes, the combination of a bit of clipping and coloration from a pedal, accompanied by considerable boost, is enough to make the amplifier behave in a more desirable manner.

[GibsonGM]

Personally, I'm digging my Dist+, tom...I hated the SD-1 thru my HRDx, sounded too 'woody'.  I built my Dist+ pretty much stock, used 1N914 silicon diodes (which I recommend using).  Had it breadboarded before ass'y.,, I might have tweaked a cap or 2 but it's pretty much by the book.  I didn't like Ge diodes or LED's, but that's my preference.  The EQ on the amp lets me play with midrange to get what I like...GOBS of distortion and plenty of level boost (so a tone control could be added to it later no problem).   I also use a Big Muff Pi for some things (Smashing pumpkins, etc.), mainly it just has a huge midscoop for grunge. Gotta watch that, sometimes not enough midrange makes you disappear on stage. 

Check the sound clips above...Dist+ = a Welcome to the Jungle sound on a LP bridge pickup, maybe Crazy Train-ish, actually done with Marshall amps.  My neck pickup sounds like Hendrix or Guess Who's American Woman leads on acid with that pedal, LOL! I love it & it's #1 in my chain since it brightens up my sound a bit vs. the amp.  It's in NO way thin, god no! ha ha.  Maybe with a SS amp, but not with the HRDx....you can get serious bass-thump going.

Looks like you're getting some good advice from others, too....listening to the ones who know in this forum will help you learn tons!!
I suggest getting some breadboarding stuff for like $25, a meter for another $25, it will be necessary if you get into this hobby!  Search around on here, look up "distortion" and "meters" etc., you will pick up quickly...

[_tom_]

Awesome, cheers for all the help. I reckon I'm gonna get a Dist + and experiment with various clipping diodes. When you say "mainly it just has a huge midscoop for grunge." I hope you're talking about the Big Muff? I cant stand mid-scooped tones. As for LEDs to use for clipping diodes, are these what I'd need - http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=2054&criteria=LED&doy=21m9 ? If so, 5v or 12v, and does colour matter?

I'll research some more when I'm not so tired, I'm nackered from getting up at half 6 each morning to take my sister in to college 

Found a schematic for the Dist + from Tonepad.com, I take it the clipping diodes are D1 and D2? Finally.. are LED's polarized and if so how can you tell which direction they are meant to go in the board?


edit - just wanted to say cheers for all the replies, you guys are so helpful 

[GibsonGM]

Hi Again, Tom....yes, the Big Muff is the one with the huge mid scoop...really nice sound, but I use mine more for chords, grunge, etc.  The Dist+ is pretty faithful to how you have your amp EQ set, no weird surprises there.  Trust me, a great one to build, and easy to modify.    Yes, your clippers are D1 and D2..try 1N914 (my choice), LEDs, germanium diodes....sounds like you'd like the 914's.

For LED's, I'd go with the high brightness red, 1/2way down on this page:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=LED&menu=0&WorldSearch=Y&doy=22m9&ShowPics=true&Stock=28&MinPrice=0&MaxPrice=9999&SD=true

....see if you can find a pack with several colors (Radio Shack has them, if there's one where you live - UK?).  Different colors have differing forward voltages, therefore different sound.  They will be more "crunchy, overdrivey"...the 914's are 'fat & hard", the Ge "buzzy/fuzzy".


Check this schematic, it's the one I used and I found it easy to interpret.  I didn't add any of the optional things except the 1M to ground resistor to eliminate switch popping:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l9/generalguitar/MXRDIST2.gif

the .01uf input cap, 1uf output cap, and .001uf cap by D1 & D2 also shape your sound.  Making them smaller will make ckt more trebly, larger = more low end.   The one by the diodes changes the character of the distortion/clipping.   The 1uF does not have to be tantalum; 1uF electrolytic (or other type) is fine.

This should keep you busy! 

[petemoore]

  The clipping diodes are between output before volume pot and ground, there may be a protection diode between V+ and ground [not a bad idea].
  Thing I didn't want to get into with the DS-1 is all those caps, all the schtuff in it, and the general sound of the unit I have is just no better than so-so, it'd be alot to go to, and more stuff to tweek in...not sure I'd be up for all that figureing out which DS-1 sound I liked best.
  The DIST+ OTOH is pretty simple, does what it says, and is relatively easy to work with, messing with caps..EZ build lends itself to mods well. I like it's basic nature, and the harder clipping a simple booster can drive it to producing.

[birt]

oh and leds are polarized. the side where you see a little "flag" in the led is the negative side.

[Meanderthal]

 Hmmm. Marshall type sound... They made a lot of amps over the years. Neither the ds1 nor d+ really sound like any of them, but properly modded they are both outstanding in their own way! I would classify the ds1 as the more "marshally" of the 2 however, but that's just a subjective opinion and cannnot be hard fact  since it's really comparing apples to grapes...
I can verify that the Thunderchief really does sound a whole lot like an old super lead! If I were to have named that pedal I would have called it the "Early Eddie" pedal, because it really nails the early VanHalen sound- to the point where I was totally amazed! With the perf layout it's an easy build, except fot the biasing part, but even that wasn't all THAT hard- just squirrely.
But, you MUST get a meter to bias it, although it need not be expensive. If you plan on making a hobby out of electronics you really ought to get one anyway!
I have heard good things about the Eighteen also, and there's an entirely different yet distinctly Marshall sound...