AC-128 transistors?

[analogmike]

My offer was from Germanium Power Devices for lots of 1000 units at $3.6? per unit.

I reiterate -
New manufacture germanium may or may not have the qualities that make it good for audio effects. As I noted, these qualities do not appear on datasheets.

exactly! I did have that company make me up some NKT275 transistors (they also make them for some other pedal makers currently). They did not sound good enough at all, even with the exact, correct specs.

[R.G.]

Yeah.

The sound of germanium transistors was always a byproduct of what the electronics world was trying to do at the time. When it happened, it was a chance meeting of the first effects designs and a certain point on humanity's learning curve about how to make semiconductors. It may well be that we no longer know how to do things exactly that crudely, how to find exactly that point on the learning curve - no cruder, and no less crude.

It reminds me of the distilleries of single malt Scotch. Good single malts are made in pot stills, not modern high-extraction continuous distillation columns. When one of these has to be replaced, the replacement is made the same shape, and repaired holes are made and patched with exact replacement patches and rivets. They don't know what the effect of still shape has on the taste of the Scotch, but they know it does have an effect, and they are not willing to change anything, fearing that they would never again be able to find the combination of factors that make it right.

[analogmike]

Wow, can I quote the above post?  A film crew is coming to my shop tomorrow for a FUZZ documentary and I think that really explains the HAPPY ACCIDENT which is germanium fuzz.

[vanessa]

Is it possible that the tones that we associate with NOS germanium transistors might not actually be the way they sounded when they were originally hot off the production line back in the day? Germanium transistors degrade over a period of time some faster than others, but they all do. So it would make sense that they are not going to sound exactly how they did when they were first produced. Just like old speakers and pickups change their character as they degrade over time.
What I'm getting at is it would be my guess that a new AC128 made to the exact specs as the originals would sound different than an original do to the affect of time. I would go further and say if you had a time machine and could go back in time to get a brand new original and compare it to one that has aged 35-40 years you would find that they sound different in the present day even if they sounded exactly the same back in 1966. 
I don't think there is any mojo other than the affect of time. Just like a good Scotch mellows with age.

[R.G.]

Wow, can I quote the above post?  A film crew is coming to my shop tomorrow for a FUZZ documentary and I think that really explains the HAPPY ACCIDENT which is germanium fuzz.

Of course you can quote me.

Is it possible that the tones that we associate with NOS germanium transistors might not actually be the way they sounded when they were originally hot off the production line back in the day? ... I don't think there is any mojo other than the affect of time. Just like a good Scotch mellows with age.

Of course it's possible. A combination of some or all of these effects are possible. We don't know the exact formula, and we can't because we don't know what it is that we don't know, and we can't afford to recreate the industry as it was back then and let them age.

We do know by historical notes that only about one in ten Fuzz Faces sounded really good when they were brand new, and that the ratio is probably not all that different today. But the naive effects user has been softened up to be a sucker for a real, original Fuzz Face with original X transistors in it.

It gets back to what I'm always telling people who are hunting AC128's or NKT275's and expect them to sound incredible. The type number printed on the can means very little, and the age of the transistor means nothing. Test out the obviously defective transistors and interview the ones that aren't defective. A real, original AC128 or NKT275 that survives to today is more likely to have been leftovers from previous siftings than not.

Test, then listen.

Frankly, I think an amount of work equal to all the germanium hunting that's going on now would make piggybacking reliably good.

[vanessa]

I just wanted to elaborate on the time factor a bit.

Let's say that you could go back in time and bring that 1 out of 10 fuzz face into the future, then compare it to a DIY modern version with NOS ge's of the same manufacturer with the same production dates, because our ears are conditioned to the NOS ge's of 30+ years my guess would be we would think the original sounded off by comparison and we would not like it as much (if at all).

[R.G.]

Yep, I knew what you were saying.

It's the old question about wine. I open a 1999 Chateu de Camensac and note that I don't like it as much as I like my last bottle of 1978 Chateau de Camensac. But is my 1999 CdC better now than my 1978 CdC was in late 1984? No way to tell. All I have is my memory of how well I liked that 1978 when I opened it in 1984, and over that amount of time I could have changed as well as the wine. How can you ever tell?

However, unlike with wine and Scotch, we are able to go back in time and hear what good Fuzz Faces sounded like when they were new. We have the recordings. We can listen, however imperfectly, to the sound quality of what guys playing FF's sounded like with good FF's only a year or two old.

What we seem to be trying to do today is produce reproductions of that circuit when it was made with new (not new old stock at that time) transistors. We hear it in the recordings, and we can compare it with both real FFs from that era and with the same circuit built with either new or old transistors. That ability to listen to the recordings and hear what the FF sounded like then and now makes all the difference. For me, it invalidates the time travel theory.

But that's just me.

[analogmike]

I agree with RG.

the same question is often asked on the Les Paul forum about OLD WOOD in Les Pauls and Aged PAF pickups.

The Les Pauls and PAFs sounded AMAZING in the mid 60s when they were still newish. Listen to Clapton and Green recordings, even some Zeppelin-II when Jimmy's Les Paul was not so old. So it's not the aging that makes the old Les Pauls sound so amazing.

Neither does aging help effects. If anything, I find Germanium transistors get a little weaker and lose a little high end as they age. But if you buy 10 PERFECT fuzzfaces on ebay, one will still sound really good.

[vanessa]

RG- I agree to disagree with you on this one. Specifically on your point about recordings and originals to compare to.

Most of us here would not have an interest in DIY (this is very general) if it were not for one effects pedal and the man who made it famous; the Fuzz Face and of course Jimi Hendrix. Specifically his supposed use of germanium versions of the Fuzz Face on his early recordings. Using those recordings as a reference point is not a reliable aid if you are really trying to find out what that effect pedal sounded like with those new germanium transistors that would have been in the unit.
Those recordings for the most part are very muddy, and then you have to figure in all the variables like the amps he used, his playing style, guitars, cables, mics, tape, the mixing board, outboard effects, the room itself, the list goes on. The way people get so hyped up on what a germanium transistor should sound like having based off these old recordings that have so many variables it just does not make sense to me. I've listened to live stuff and studio stuff from the early years with the Experience and it all sounds different. There is nothing there that you can really use as an absolute gauge of measurement.
Other artists of the time that recorded with them as well? A whole nother can of worms to be opened. Not to mention the whole 1 out of 10 factor (units that were good) which could have been 1 out of 20, or 1 out of 30 etc. for all we know (1 out of 10 was Hendrix's personal taste or what is rumored).
Using a vintage piece for reference? You're as close as you are ever going to get to the truth of it, but you still have germanium transistors that are 30+ years old as your basis for your truth or better your unit of measurement.

[R.G.]

That's OK, we can agree to disagree on this one. Jimi wasn't the only one who used a FF.

[alderbody]

Is it possible that the tones that we associate with NOS germanium transistors might not actually be the way they sounded when they were originally hot off the production line back in the day? Germanium transistors degrade over a period of time some faster than others, but they all do. So it would make sense that they are not going to sound exactly how they did when they were first produced. Just like old speakers and pickups change their character as they degrade over time.
What I'm getting at is it would be my guess that a new AC128 made to the exact specs as the originals would sound different than an original do to the affect of time. I would go further and say if you had a time machine and could go back in time to get a brand new original and compare it to one that has aged 35-40 years you would find that they sound different in the present day even if they sounded exactly the same back in 1966. 
I don't think there is any mojo other than the affect of time. Just like a good Scotch mellows with age.

I think it's about time for the marketers to "invent" Ge transistor "relicing"...
After all the hype with reliced guitars, i believe there's room for everything accompanied with the word "relic" to add some fake mojo...

   

[Manolo Dudes]

did you just build it with the standard layout or did you customise it at all?

I Always fine tune my Fuzz Faces. The layout is standard but I play with biasing resistors. To my ears, new RS germaniums sound bad, sorry!

[Austin73]

SORRY for the delay. For those who needed the Bardwell link

http://www.bardwells.co.uk/subcats.asp?catid=GER01

Aus

[analogmike]

I think it's about time for the marketers to "invent" Ge transistor "relicing"...
After all the hype with reliced guitars, i believe there's room for everything accompanied with the word "relic" to add some fake mojo...

   

Brand New TS9!

[vanessa]

I wanted to add one last observation to my point mentioned above. The circuits themselves can be tweaked to pull some of those less than desirable transistors into Jimi heaven.

Analog Mike makes a good point when he says that "I find Germanium transistors get a little weaker and lose a little high end as they age". Fuzz Face's and just about any other circuit for that matter can be tweaked to taste. If you want your fuzz face to sound like a fuzz face on a muddy recording made 40 years ago, and your pick of germanium transistors have an emphasis on the highs, re-voice the circuit to muddy it up a bit. Don't throw those transistors away. At the least give them to me! 

[mercy me]

i have many many germanium ac128 transistors nos made by tungsram and cheaper than bardwells in the uk and reichelt and rs in fact just about anyone in europe any takers???
yes i am from england and i have probably sold many to these board members via ebay

[Rick]

Fun thread, and gotta' agree with RG and others that new manufacture GEs are probably not the mojo answer.
Awhile back I procured just two TI germs much newer than all my other ratty looking Japanese PnPs and they
sounded very nearly like silicon trannies (tonebender circuit, and fuzz face circuits). No mojo, and I won't use
them for this purpose. I still think that it's not what old GEs do well, but rather what they don't do well that gives
the mojo sound, kinda' like tube amps compared to solid state. For sure some leakage sounds good.   ...Rick

[alderbody]

Brand New TS9!

looks like it was recovered from a shipwreck... 


o tempora, o mores!...

[lmkv15]

pay 1/3rd for singles, compared to the 100+ price above:
http://www.reichelt.de/

Hi,

The AC128 from Reichelt doesn't have enough Hfe. The hfe value lay between 40...80.

regards Uwe

[Pedal love]

Its like I always say we are concerned about Jimi Hendrix for just a few years in the sixties early seventies. Just say that you are looking for a sound that happened in about a year or two of production model fuzz faces, which at the most is 730 days. We are still adhering to this rule. We desire the sounds we get on the pedals made then, because those are the pedals we heard on classic albums. End of story. If Hendrix were alive today and never became a musician, but heard Prince in concert this year, might Jimi say Prince is talented, but some of his fuzzes sound too new? They're not like the older, better, ones.