Lowering the Output on a Strat, how to?

[Hendrik1]

I was planning to build the seventh type of Tubescreamer or Booster,
but was wondering if there is a way to 'lower' the output of the Pickups at first before the signal goes to a pedal.

Most story's about good full sounding Fenders, even Jimi's Strat, they discover that they had low output pickups.

Any ideas?

[axeman010]

Hi

I am not disagreeing with you that some old strats may have had low output pickups, although I'm not sure that
would have been a major contribution to their sound. I have always bee led to believe that you should a "hot"
or high signal from the guitar to avoid noise being picked up from needing lots of gain in the preamp to compensate for
the low input. I have a 1979 Strat and the original pickups were junk, so about 20 years ago I replaced them with aged
Seymour Ducans and the difference was amazing and has been getting better with each year that passes.

I feel sure that this solution is far to obvious and probably someone will correct it with regards to change in tone etc.
but surely the easiest way to lower the output is just to turn the volume down ?

Will follow this one with interest.


Axeman

[GibsonGM]

Hi Hendrik,

Short of buying new low-output pickups...the only way that comes to my mind mechanically to lower the output is to use a pot wired as a variable resistor or 1 leg to ground and taking the output from the wiper.  You could use a 10K trim pot at the input to the board, or take it off-board so you can adjust it.  This is sometimes done to fuzz face pedals to change input impedance.  It will sound muddier and muddier as you increase the resistance beyond a certain point, tho.  There are schemes that add a cap in there to try to make the signal brighter as you roll back the input level; they help but to me aren't really enough. 

Electronically, an opamp could be used to provide a negative gain.  I've never done or seen this sort of attenuation in action; it could be a cool experiment!  So, for intellectual reasons you might want to play around...for not too much $$, you can just look into different pickups.

I've never heard of anyone wanting to lower the signal level, LOL.  My gut tells me it might not sound too good....but I'm no expert 

[d95err]

High output pickups will generate more preamp distortion. Really high output humbuckers could possibly clip a little already at the very first gain stage, before the first volume (gain) control. So, by using low output pickups, the preamp will run cleaner, and focus shifts towards more poweramp distortion. This could certainly be a good thing in many tube amps. However, low output pickups means more noice.

Using passive components to lower the volume (e.g. the guitar volume knob) will affect the tone, typically by sucking out treble.

A simple solution would be a buffer followed by a volume pot (e.g. 100k). That should retain the brilliance of the signal while allowing you to set whatever output level you want. Using a buffer could be a problem though if using pedals that have intentionally low impedance inputs (e.g. Fuzz Face).

In conclusion, switching to lower output pickups is probably the most transparent way to lower the signal to pedals and the amp. Using a buffer is probably the best solution if you don't want to mess with the guitar.

[SteveB]

The simplest thing to try is lowering the pickup height, increasing the the distrance from it to the strings. This may not be enough of a volume drop, but the volume should decrease.

Steve

[zjokka]

Using passive components to lower the volume (e.g. the guitar volume knob) will affect the tone, typically by sucking out treble.

true, but you could put a 'treble bleed cap' across the volume pot to fight this.
nevertheless I'm always a bit skeptical about these 'tone quests', there are so many factors involved that changing one is not going to get you in tone heaven. Also, I find it hard to really compare sounds on records with what comes from a guitar amp. The tone you hear is also shaped in the recording stage.

but do experiment,
zj

[Paul Marossy]

The simplest thing to try is lowering the pickup height, increasing the the distrance from it to the strings. This may not be enough of a volume drop, but the volume should decrease.

+1. Lower those suckers down!

[petemoore]

  Other than the middle pickup sorta high, I've been having the other two SC's [bridge and neck]...LoW..[est on the bass side
  This makes a huge difference, spanky time, takes the 'overdrivey tone' right out of the equation...I like it.

[Mark Hammer]

+2 for lowering pickups.

BUT....

Clipping is always, always, always and ALWAYS a function of:

1) Point at which the clipping circuit clips
2) The amplitude of the input signal
3) The gain applied in the clipping circuit

Maximizing signal level is important to maintaining optimal signal-to-noise ratio, so there is every reason in the world to want to keep the guitar's signal level as high as is reasonable.  Lowering pickups will both alter amplitude as well as tonal quality.  You may like the volume shift but not like the tone that comes along with it for the ride.  So there are several reasons to want to leave the pickups right where they are for S/N ratio purposes.

If the goal is to achieve some level suitable for finding the sweet spot in a clipping circuit, then I suggest you figure out how to alter the clipping circuit so as to apply less gain or raise the clipping threshold.  That approach will permit you to keep your optimized level for S/N purposes but still nail the sweet spot as easily as you'd like to.

Failing that, simply solder in a low-noise 47k (or thereabouts) resistor in series between your pickup selector switch and your guitar's volume pot.  If it has a stock 250k pot, that will mimic a 297k pot that can never be turned up full.  You'll never have to futz around trying to find "the magic spot between 7 and 8" where the volume needs to be set.  The impact on amplitude will be about the same as lowering your pickups but you won't have any tonal change.

[Meanderthal]

 This all brings to mind the Coodercaster- a strat with tiesco gold foil pickups. Another way to go about getting that kinda sound is installing Danelectro lipstick tube pickups- really looks cool too. Both of these will give you that old timey jangly clear sweet tone, but you won't sound remotely hendrixy- these pickups only have like 2 or 3k ohm resistance(like gretch, dearmond, etc.) and relatively weak magnets; they are inherently low output. The range for the 'vintage' strat sound is more like 5.6k ohm or so, output level pretty much like many newer ones, the main differences being scatterwound coils and sometimes NOT potted! But, more winds on the coil for hotter output change the tone, really it's all a matter of taste.

The way guys like Jimi attenuated their pickups was all too simple- the volume knob right there on the strat (too damn close to the strings for me!). Possibly just an attenuating resistor on your output might lower it more permanently? There's one in the Hofner basses on a switch, also seems to lower treble... but they have no tone control...

[aron]

Most story's about good full sounding Fenders, even Jimi's Strat, they discover that they had low output pickups.

Besides lowering the pickups, maybe just make a small box with a pot and maybe treble bypass cap that will lower the level going into everything. I don't know, just a thought. To me, other than lowering the pickups, I wouldn't mod the guitar any further for this.

[johngreene]

Most story's about good full sounding Fenders, even Jimi's Strat, they discover that they had low output pickups.

Besides lowering the pickups, maybe just make a small box with a pot and maybe treble bypass cap that will lower the level going into everything. I don't know, just a thought. To me, other than lowering the pickups, I wouldn't mod the guitar any further for this.

So, what exactly is 'low' output? as opposed to 'normal' output or 'high' output? People seem to measure a pickup by it's resistance but how does that correlate to it's output voltage? Does a 3k pickup have a harder time with a 100K load than a 5K pickup? Lets say a 'nominal' pickup that drives a 'nominal' amplifier with an input impedance of 'X' sounds 'good' what happens when you plug it into a pedal with only 100K (200K, 50K, pick your pedal) input impedance? Inquiring minds want to know...



--john

[bwanasonic]

I was planning to build the seventh type of Tubescreamer or Booster,
but was wondering if there is a way to 'lower' the output of the Pickups at first before the signal goes to a pedal.

Most story's about good full sounding Fenders, even Jimi's Strat, they discover that they had low output pickups.

Any ideas?

It's not the *low output* part of the pickup that makes it sound good, it's the overall recipe of wire/winds and magnets. You simply will not get the same results by *padding down* a pickup with more winds and stronger magnets. Good sounding pickups are made that way from the ground up. It always helps to specify what particular pickups you are talking about, but the previous suggestions to explore pickup height may be all you need. OTOH, if you have some super overwound, ceramic magnet pickups, no amount of height tweaking, or added passive parts will get you even remotely close to the sound of a *vintage* set. BTW, for an inexpensive set of quality *Sparkly* Strat pickups, I've heard really good things about the Bill Lawrence *Keystone* line of pickups (haven't personally tried them yet). They are true single-coils, for a super reasonable price. On the pricier *Boutique* end (>$200), the nicest set I have personally tried are the John Suhr V60 pickups. But to sum up, if you want a low output *vintage* tone, buy* some low output  vintage pickups! 

Kerry M

edit: *Of course in a DIY forum I should mention that winding a set yourself is also an option to consider. Not one I would personally consider, but an option nonetheless.

[Ben N]

Add me to the chorus for lowering the pickups--in fact, I'd start out with them flush to the pickguard, and then experiment with raising them to the level that makes you happy, a quarter-turn at a time.  I find that this is a good approach for humbuckers as well as SCs, and, as noted in another thread, it drastically improved my set of Bill Lawrence noiseless SCs, too.

I'll make another recommendation for a "budget" set of vintage style pups:  GFS Vintage Alnico (available from Guitar Fetish on ebay).  For vintage Strat spank, they are just great--absolutely slay the stock set in my Highway-1.  They also look quite solidly made, with cloth-covered, color-coded wire.  And yes--set them low.  They are just as noisy as any other strat set, though, and lowering the pickup will only hurt your signal-to-noise ratio, so you may want to consider a slightly hotter set of vintage-voiced pups (GFS has those, too, but I don't have any personal experience).
Ben