Wanted to share very specialized info with DIY forum

[Frodoro]

I wonder what 1000 boxes of 75 (W) x 100 (H) x 38 (H) (3 x 4 x 1 1/2) would cost? They could include the stompswitch (13mm) and input/output (10mm) holes.

Well, taking the numbers from the first post, it costs you $10,000 to get a die (mold) made. If the boxes were made at 0 cost per box, 1000 boxes would cost, in all, $10,000. That's $10 per box. If you were charged $1 per box for actually casting the aluminum and shipping them, they'd cost $11 per box.

Does the economics start to make sense? Another way to look at it is that the first box costs you $10,001, and after that, they're $1 each.

Die casting is great stuff if you make a lot of identical things. But you have to be really sure you're going to get enough volume to make up for the big up front investment in the mold.

By the way, $10K is a simple mold at bargain prices. One reasonably complicated injected plastic mold we had made on a project I ran was $250K for the molds before we got our first part.

I think plastic molding is better than die casting. However, the investment is really high. The fact that the plastic is very a productive product.

[edvard]

What I wouldn't pay for a bunch of old Ross-style boxes. <3 <3 <3

[R.G.]

I think plastic molding is better than die casting. However, the investment is really high. The fact that the plastic is very a productive product.

Plastic molding - at least injection molding - is exactly the same as die casting; you have a skilled machinist or an entire machine shop carve out the reverse of the part you want from a chunk of solid steel. When this is perfect, you make the parts by injecting molten plastic or molten metal and letting it cool. Whether plastic or metal is squirted into the mold differs only in slight details of the temperatures, required die material, etc.

What I wouldn't pay for a bunch of old Ross-style boxes. <3 <3 <3

I guess more properly - what *would* you pay. If you're desperate enough to drop maybe $20,000 on it, I can get you a deal... 

By the way, in rereading this very old thread, I notice that I did not explain the difference between die casting and sand casting. Sand casting is different from die casting in that you use slightly wet sand to make a "die"  by packing the sand around a replica in wood, plastic, metal, foam, etc. of the part you want and then remove the model. The sand remains in the shape of the object you had in there, and then you pour the mold full of molten metal. Sand casting does not require making a solid-steel die. But it does require making a (usually) wooden replica of what  you want, and about an hour per object of careful packing of a box of sand for the pour. And it requires you to clean up the pebbly surface of the resulting part if you need it non-grainy.

Sand casting aluminum is not terribly difficult. I've flirted very near doing this myself, as aluminum melts at low temperatures for a metal, not nearly as dangerous as molten iron. But still any molten metal in quantity is quite dangerous. Simply pouring it on the ground can cause steam explosions from the moisture in the dirt, and pouring it into your shoe accidentally is something you don't even want to think about. Sand casting is something you theoretically can do at home, although it requires research and extreme caution and preparedness.

One variety of casting is the lost-wax process. You carve a replica of what you want in wax. Then you coat the wax in a material which can withstand molten metal when it's dry, like plaster or cement. You melt out the wax with an oven, leaving a place to pour in molten metal. Most one-of-a-kind jewelry is made this way. You can also make the original out of polystyrene foam, cover it in the 'investment' material, and then simply pour in the molten metal. The metal turns the foam to a gas and it's vented from the mold by the vents you so thoughtfully put in the mold. The "lost foam" process lets you make cast metal objects of high complexity by a simple process. Alas, if you want them in quantity, you then have to make a mold for the foam plastic parts.    But making up a few parts from glued-up plastic foam is a simple manual process.

[edvard]

Yeah, I kinda figured stuff like that would cost a bunch, but it just seems that if you want anything a little fancier than a Hammond box, you're out of luck.
I really think having a sloped face to step on would help prevent many cases of switch breakage, as the facing angle would be more in line with the force vector of a foot hinging at the heel.
Actually, I'd swing for Hammond's 1456CE2's if they didn't have those funky vents in them, and if they were just a little cheaper that'd help too.
17 bucks for the white/blue ones and 22 for the black/blue from Mouser doesn't sit too well with my wallet come parts-buying time.

[Paul Marossy]

By the way, $10K is a simple mold at bargain prices. One reasonably complicated injected plastic mold we had made on a project I ran was $250K for the molds before we got our first part.

Wow, that's some serious dough. 

[amptramp]

I don't know if these guys actually have a product yet, but

http://www.pedalshell.webs.com/

is advertising and enclosure that looks a bit more like the production ones from major companies.  The price of $30 US with the switch is not unreasonable.

[Roland]

I think Henry Ford made his first prototype automobile out of hemp..stronger than metal and scratch proof, durable and paintabe etc. apparently dent proof also. Now that would be quite the case...and marketing feature... " the stealth box"....heard it here first.  Ha I can see the pdeals now ..'buzz box"..your imagination is the limit to the cool names for pedals made out that.

Environmentally friendly   

[MoltenVoltage]

Just get some sheets of steel and a press brake

http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html?utm_term=5907&utm_medium=cse&utm_source=googlebase

[tskullt]

Hi Guys (and Gals),
  Yes you can do casting in the states.  (My YY's are cast recycled aluminum).  It IS expensive to get going and yes, you do have to get a mold made.  My YY mold will last for 100k enclosures (I'm not close yet, but you all can help! ).   

  The mold I'm using is made of hardened steel and liquified aluminum is injected into the mold, which produces both the enclosure and bottom cover.   It took me nearly two years of pre-production work to get the first one in my hand and then another 3 months to overcome production issues.   

The set up/R&D work involved is expensive and tedious and there were times over the two years it seemed I'd never get it off the ground.  I sunk a lot of cash into pre-production costs on these babies.

btw, I have another casting in the works and have contracted for the next mold.   I also wanted to use US talent for my enclosures, and have been told by many to go off-shore for these, but I just don't feel right about it.   It's not a big patriotic thing with me, I want to support the people here that are taking care of my biz....

I have posted pics of the mold/casting process, if you'd like I can re-post them.

hey edvard, the YY's are pretty close to the Ross boxes (sans the recess for the knobs).

any questions, fire away...
mike

[Pigyboy]

I have posted pics of the mold/casting process, if you'd like I can re-post them.

Hey Mikey,
I would love to see the pictures of the process.
I have just been at your web page drooling like a drummer again.

[tskullt]

'drooling like a drummer' ha!

yeah, lemme dig 'em up...
m.

[Pigyboy]

Here is the 12AX7 preamp I make using the Pedalenclosures YY box.

Who out there would be into a small version of the YY? We have the enclosure master posting here. So while we have his ear I give a vote for the Mini YY!


Pig

[tskullt]

ok, first you get the mold...


(yes, that is a fork lift carrying it)

then you get some recycled aluminum ingots...



then you melt them down...



then the liquified aluminum is forced into the mold...

then the part is ejected and you get these....



those round circles on the inside of the enclosure is where the pins eject the part.

then they are vibrated (gets them smooth) and tapped...

then you paint 'em and you get these...


or brush 'em and you get ...



viola!
mike

[Paul Marossy]

Pretty cool. Definitely not the kind of thing you can do out of your garage, though. 

ok, first you get the mold...


(yes, that is a fork lift carrying it)

then you get some recycled aluminum ingots...



then you melt them down...



then the liquified aluminum is forced into the mold...

then the part is ejected and you get these....



those round circles on the inside of the enclosure is where the pins eject the part.

then they are vibrated (gets them smooth) and tapped...

then you paint 'em and you get these...


viola!
mike

[RedHouse]

We did aluminum sand casting in high school metal shop. Oily sand, talc, molten aluminum and viola! Ash trays, silhouettes of Abe Lincoln's head, gear shift knobs... we was wild!

I wouldn't want to get as thin as a Hammond, but a cool clunky box would be pretty easy with not too much of an investment.

Yeah, so did I.

Back in those days we used to cast "Hurst" shifter handles for our hotrods.

[Brymus]

Pretty cool. Definitely not the kind of thing you can do out of your garage, though. 

ok, first you get the mold...


(yes, that is a fork lift carrying it)

then you get some recycled aluminum ingots...



then you melt them down...



then the liquified aluminum is forced into the mold...

then the part is ejected and you get these....



those round circles on the inside of the enclosure is where the pins eject the part.

then they are vibrated (gets them smooth) and tapped...

then you paint 'em and you get these...


viola!
mike

Earlier I could see all those pics now they are empty squares with a little red X in the top right corner  ?
What happened ?

[Processaurus]

One variety of casting is the lost-wax process. You carve a replica of what you want in wax. Then you coat the wax in a material which can withstand molten metal when it's dry, like plaster or cement. You melt out the wax with an oven, leaving a place to pour in molten metal. Most one-of-a-kind jewelry is made this way. You can also make the original out of polystyrene foam, cover it in the 'investment' material, and then simply pour in the molten metal. The metal turns the foam to a gas and it's vented from the mold by the vents you so thoughtfully put in the mold. The "lost foam" process lets you make cast metal objects of high complexity by a simple process. Alas, if you want them in quantity, you then have to make a mold for the foam plastic parts.    But making up a few parts from glued-up plastic foam is a simple manual process.

Very cool, R.G..  Maybe I'll look around for some local business that could drip some molten aluminum into a lost foam mold.

Thank you, Mike, for the pictures of your business.  Super interesting, how a pedal box is born.  Your workshop kind of looks like a level of Resident Evil.

[RedHouse]

ok, first you get the mold...


(yes, that is a fork lift carrying it)

then you get some recycled aluminum ingots...



then you melt them down...



then the liquified aluminum is forced into the mold...

then the part is ejected and you get these....



those round circles on the inside of the enclosure is where the pins eject the part.

then they are vibrated (gets them smooth) and tapped...

then you paint 'em and you get these...


or brush 'em and you get ...



viola!
mike

Do you sell those?

[Pigyboy]

Do you sell those?[\quote]

Hi RedHouse.
Yes Mikey sells those and lots more. I have used several of his boxes and we are using the YY exclusively for one of our pedals.  His page is pedalenclosures dot com.
If you have dealt with him you know that Mike is one of the coolest  cats around.  If you haven't you owe it to yourself to check out his page and put one of your creations in a Pedalenclosure box.
Like he says, Makes all the other pedals jealous.
Pigyboy

[tskullt]

Thanks all, and esp. Pigyboy for the plug!

Yeah, it's a weird combination of high-tech and medieval!

There are many ways to go about it, but I wanted in for the long view so I went with the hardened steel mold...
m.