question on copyright/trademark...

[bent]

i read the article http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm

but one thing is not clear to me....

if a name my pedal with simply the name of the effect:
my chorus would be "chorus"
distortion - "distortion"
flanger- "flanger"
would it be a violation of copyright or trademark or any stuff like that?
like if you take let's say the big muff pi and name it "muff" , would it be violation...
or should i use exemple: "bent chorus"....."bent muff"....."bent flanger"....and so on??

thank's

bent

[bent]

i just see that a company have made it....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GUITAR-EFFECTS-PEDAL-OVERDRIVE_W0QQitemZ330049766502QQihZ014QQcategoryZ22669QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

what happen if i do the same?

finally does the effect name: overdrive-chorus-delay-ect... is copyright/trademark?
bent

[puretube]

NO...

[R.G.]

if a name my pedal with simply the name of the effect:
my chorus would be "chorus"
distortion - "distortion"
flanger- "flanger"
would it be a violation of copyright or trademark or any stuff like that?

I understand that copyright does not apply when it would literally take words out of the language, as in this case. And in fact, since the single words already existed in the public domain, copyright is not possible for the single terms.

Trademark is not the same. Trademark is literally a mark, symbol, or sequence of words that you apply to your products to identify them as yours. Trademark is intended to prevent people from making shoddy imitations of someone's good works and presenting them as the work of the person whose trademark appears. Trademarks must be registered to be particularly useful legally. IANAL but my understanding is that it is quite difficult to obtain a trademark on a generic term, such as these are, without including a more specific qualifier, such as in this case "Belcat Distortion". I don't think anyone can obtain exclusive trademark use of "distortion" for stompboxes. Of course laws vary from country to country. In some countries, do whatever you like. In some countries you can lose all of your possessions and go to jail.

like if you take let's say the big muff pi and name it "muff" , would it be violation...

It's likely that if you made a similar pedal and called it a "muff" that the current owner of that trademark would see  you in court for infringement. Even a "confusingly similar" mark is held to be an infringement in some cases. Better to call it a "Psychedelic Pillow - circuitry inspired by the Big Muff Pi (tm)" thereby making it clear that you are not trying to represent it as something made by another holder of trademark.

or should i use exemple: "bent chorus"....."bent muff"....."bent flanger"....and so on??

That's far more reasonable. You might even be able to register "Bent Chorus" as yours.

Better yet, before you do anything that might get you into legal problems, go consult a lawyer. My friend the lawyer tells me the people he can help least are the ones that start off with "let me tell you what I did..." in the past tense. There may not be much help there. If you have to ask questions about what is legal and stand to be hurt by the wrong answer, ask a lawyer first.

And another flower in the field of boutique effects blooms... 

[bent]

thank you very mutch R.G.

you have a way to make it clear......

now i understand....

see you

bent

[Barcode80]

i know layout of a circuit can be copyrighted (at least the pcb), but i don't think any circuit can be copyrighted, right? like, if i were unscrupulous, i could feasibly take any schematic, lay it out and build it, then claim the product as my own, right? at least i think that would fall under the protection of reverse-engineering (no action can be taken on a product that is reverse engineered to determine its makeup then implemented somewhere else). am i right?

[amz-fx]

if a name my pedal with simply the name of the effect:
my chorus would be "chorus"
distortion - "distortion"
flanger- "flanger"
would it be a violation of copyright or trademark or any stuff like that?

No, you cannot trademark a generic term that is descriptive of the product.  Chorus, for example,  is a generic term in widespread use for a certain type of delay effect.

You could trademark Bent Chorus but that would not stop someone from using or trademarking Jack Chorus or Jim Chorus or Hippie Chorus and so on.

For example, Kleenex Tissues...  Kleenex is a trademark but Tissues is a generic term that can be used by anyone. 

regards, Jack

[bent]

thank'S jack.....

i know layout of a circuit can be copyrighted (at least the pcb), but i don't think any circuit can be copyrighted, right? like, if i were unscrupulous, i could feasibly take any schematic, lay it out and build it, then claim the product as my own, right? at least i think that would fall under the protection of reverse-engineering (no action can be taken on a product that is reverse engineered to determine its makeup then implemented somewhere else). am i right?

i think your right , a seller in a musician store told me once that Behringer is doing that....

bent

[freakshow__]

I'm sorry if this seems redundant but...if I make a pedal and call it the Phat Rat I can basically be taken to court for it? Even if there is no visable TM or R on the pedals enclosure at all?

[The Tone God]

I'm sorry if this seems redundant but...if I make a pedal and call it the Phat Rat I can basically be taken to court for it? Even if there is no visable TM or R on the pedals enclosure at all?

I don't believe the TM or R, depending the case, is not required but it is encourage to make sure there is no question. You can be taken to court for anything and any reason. If the case is a legitimate one or not is another matter that is decided in the legal process.

The bigger question is can you survive a legal assault from a manufacture ? Even if you are right the manufacturer's legal team can simple wear you down until you submit for example if you run out of money. If cannot handle the possibility of legal action against you then maybe you should not even risk the chance by playing the name game.

Andrew

[R.G.]

I'm sorry if this seems redundant but...if I make a pedal and call it the Phat Rat I can basically be taken to court for it? Even if there is no visable TM or R on the pedals enclosure at all?

1. In the USA, you can be taken to court for //**>> --- ANYTHING ---<<<**\\  and it's up to you to pay for your defense. That is why any threat of a suit is not an empty threat. The price of any legal defense whatsoever, however trivial, will start at about US$10,000. If you have to do any significant legal actions, it costs about $100,000 to get to a court date. I know this from experience. If you are a minor, then there is no possible civil action against you. But your parents or legal guardians are fully liable.

2. If you want to to know the subtleties of the law, do two things: first, go read and reread until you understand the explanations of copyright, trademark, trade secret, and patent law at the US patent, copyright and trademark web site. Reading the opinions of others who are not an Intellectual Property (IP) attorney is somewhat less useful than asking your postman whether he thinks it will rain tomorrow. He at least has practical experience if not formal training and up-to-the-minute information. Generic legal opinions on the internet probably have neither. Second, if you're seriously considering doing something like you propose, go get the advice of an IP attorney first. The several hundred dollars that asking first costs is a lot smaller than you'll pay if you get even one cease and desist letter.

3. Not finding a "tm" or circle-r is not a good thing to rely on. Just because it's not noted does not mean it's not registered. And registration is not necessary. Trademarks are enforceable without registration. I promise you that you don't want to get into a lawsuit that will obviously be won by the party with the deepest pockets.

3. If you want to be sure you're not going to get into trouble, don't go playing around at the edge. Trademark owners are sometimes legally aggressive because if they do not actively defend their trademark, they can lose the rights to it. Exxon for one example is legally aggressive. They sue just about anything with two Xs in it. Other outfits may not be or may not find out about your uses. So don't stand so close to the edge. Why exactly is it critically necessary to call it an ANYTHING Rat? Are there other words you can use that are not so likely to get you a summons? If you don't want to get burned, don't stand so close to the fire. Think up the NEXT GREAT THING, don't trade on someone else's old ideas.

[JonFrum]

Regarding reverse engineering: IBM bought some personal computers, and assigned engineers to study the parts to determine what jobs were being done. Those engineers wrote up a report: "When you press a button, "A" happens. Then a doohickie is used to send a signal to a widget that confabulates a frim-fram". That report was sent to another state, when another group of engineers designed a circuit that would do the operations described in the report. Voila! The IBM PC was born. Note that the critical point is that the two groups of engineers were separate, and IBM could prove that they had no contact. Which leads me to believe that if Joe Pedaldood "reverse engineers" a pedal and builds the identical circuit, he would probably be subject to legal do-do. If, however, Joe sees how the pedal works and uses his knowledge to build a circuit with different parts that does the same thing, then he's OK.

On another note: A year or two ago there was a court case in which Veronica's Secret sued a husband/wife lingerie shop. The guy's name was Victor, so they named their business "Victor's Secret". Husband and wife were shocked when they lost. 

[R.G.]

Regarding reverse engineering: IBM bought some personal computers, and...

Actually, that's not how it happened. I worked with some of the people who were on the team that designed the IBM Personal Computer. The IBM PC was an original design, as completely as any design with an all-Intel chipset could be said to be an original design.

It is, however, a very accurate description of how the IBM Personal Computer (r) was copied by others. Clean-room design was used to get around the IBM copyrights on the boards and BIOS.

The actual parties and who done what to who is important in these kinds of things.

A year or two ago there was a court case in which Veronica's Secret sued a husband/wife lingerie shop.

... um, wasn't that Victoria's Secret? I don't remember Veronica having a secret.

It is one of those axioms of the USA justice system that usually the winner is the one who can afford the most justice.

As a Roman philosopher once remarked "The gods favor the armies with the larger divisions."

[puretube]

I'm sorry if this seems redundant but...if I make a pedal and call it the Phat Rat I can basically be taken to court for it? Even if there is no visable TM or R on the pedals enclosure at all?

what do you mean:

no visible "TM" or "R" on the pedals you made a copy of,
or:
no visible "TM" or "R" on the pedals you made?

[Meanderthal]

I'm sorry if this seems redundant but...if I make a pedal and call it the Phat Rat I can basically be taken to court for it? Even if there is no visable TM or R on the pedals enclosure at all?

The word "Phat" is a registered trademark owned by Russell Simmons. Rat is most likely a trademark owned by ProCo.(didn't check that one, but pretty safe to assume)

Now, Fatrat (one word, no PH) might be safe... or might be close enough to Rat to be a problem if it's a Rat circuit and ProCo decides to make an issue of it.

[R.G.]

Now, Fatrat (one word, no PH) might be safe... or might be close enough to Rat to be a problem if it's a Rat circuit and ProCo decides to make an issue of it.

That is accurate.

And here's where the US justice system gets into it. There is nothing to keep ProCo - or Exxon - or Hewlett Packard - from suing you even if you name your pedal "Antidisestablishmentarianismerists" other than how they choose to spend their legal dollars. Anyone can sue for any reason. Your only good defense against not writing $10K attorney retainers every few days is that people don't see how they can wring enough money out of you to more than pay for their own legal fees. Having a good case is part of that and so the the only reason people don't sue you every day is economic, not legal!

The only thing new here is ... chuckle... using Phat Rat might possibly infringe two different trademarks at the same time. That has to be some kind of record.

Hence my question: why is it one would want to stand so close to the edge? Death wish? Excess of disposable cash? Adrenaline addiction?

[amz-fx]

I would stay away from anything with the word "Rat" in the name for a pedal, especially since Proco has used several variations of the Rat theme in naming their pedals...

regards, Jack