Getting ready to add another 4 stages to Ross but have question

[jimbob]

Getting ready to add another 4 stages to ross but i was wondering if it will drastically change the way it sounds now with the 8 stages. I REALLY like the way it sounds now -my best sounding phaser yet! However, I thought the more the better? Would I still have control over the differences the extra 4 stages would make with the total of 12 stages? Or would the other 4 stages make it a whole nother beast?

Past threads reveal that anything more than 12 stages is less than idea - but I hadn't seen a thread comparing 8 stages to 12, only the differences between the 4 stage and the 8 stage.

Anyone?

[Mark Hammer]

My sense is that the impact of increasing numbers of stages will depend on the signal you are processing.  If you are processing a polyphonic synth or an entire mic'd up drum kit, where the bandwidth is substantial at both input and output (speakers) and every single notch is going to be heard loud and clear, then 12, 16, and maybe more stages will sound amazing.  If one is processing but a lowly guitar through a guitar amp (where the speakers tend to taper off above 6-8khz), then it is quite possible that some of those extra notches created might be inaudible and essentially wasted.

So, my advice is that if you want something that is able to deliver great effects for things including and beyond guitar (or can be turned around and sold as such), then shoot for 12.  If your intent is to process one guitar through an amp with limited-range speakers, then 12 might be useful or may only add value if you know its there and can persuade yourself to hear it.

Why am I saying this?  Because you need to remember that the notches are spaced out and fixed in number, unlike flangers where the number of notches increases with delay time.  When a flanger sweeps "upward" (i.e., towards less delay time), not only are the notches moved over, but they become lesser in number.  On top of this, if any notches created are actually outside the range of what the signal provides or speakers reproduce, then the number of notches is reduced even further.  The result is that part of the flanging effect is the manner in which the spectrum becomes what I like to call "infected" with notches as the sweep descends.  Not only do you get more notches but more of them become audible.  It is the contrast between the unfiltered and heavily comb-filtered states that produces a big part of the drama of the effect. 

With phasers, the number of notches is fixed and is not that plentiful in any event.  The contrast between, say, 2 audible notches (at highest point in sweep) and 4 audible notches (at lowest point in sweep) is interesting, but not exactly earth-shattering.  Twelve stages gets you 6 notches, but how many of those 6 notches are audible at the top end of sweep?  It may be the case that 2 of those 6 notches are well out of range even at the lowest point in the sweep.  Consider the case where, at the lowest point in the sweep, you produced notches at 200hz, 400hz, 800hs, 1600hz, 2400hz, and 4800hz.  How pronounced will the upper two notches be unless you use a fuzzed up signal?  Now imagine what happens as they start to sweep upward, and you have notches at, for example, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400, 12800, and 25,600hz.  Perhaps 3 of those 6 will be distinctly audible through normal speakers, and one marginally audible.

Admittedly, this is a gross exaggeration.  But the point is that you want to knock your brains out for add-ons that will yield a discernible difference in your own context, not things that look great on paper or in the abstract, but can't be heard in real-world situations.

[Harry Palms]

I found what Mark says to be exactly the case when I added more stages to my DOD Vibrothang. Anything more than 4 notches was lost on me. I put a simple switch between the 2 and the 4 and called it a day. I tend to use the original 4 stages only. I had more luck with that pedal playing with the sidechain section they called "Doppler". FWIW, I use a variation of the Anderton Phaser right out of EPFM as my main phaser. It's been my favorite. If you haven't built that one yet you might want to give it a go.

[jimbob]

If your intent is to process one guitar through an amp with limited-range speakers, then 12 might be useful or may only add value if you know its there and can persuade yourself to hear it.

If one is processing but a lowly guitar through a guitar amp (where the speakers tend to taper off above 6-8khz), then it is quite possible that some of those extra notches created might be inaudible and essentially wasted.

So- basically, It sounds as though it would probably be a waste as I am only using a guitar for it. And..more than likely I wont even be able to audable notice or hear any difference. I assume the Moog decided to do that incase it may be used on something MORE than a guitar, and also to try to mame it look that much better on paper.

FWIW, I use a variation of the Anderton Phaser right out of EPFM as my main phaser. It's been my favorite. If you haven't built that one yet you might want to give it a go.

Ill have to find that one around here and giv'r a try.

[Rick Hardslab]

I like the eight stages better on bass guitar and keyboard. 

Four stages is plenty for guitar.  I chanced upon the "Have a Cigar" phase tone with the Ropez on Four stages.

Sometimes eight stages on guitar seems to get up into slide-whistle sounding terriitory.

[MartyMart]

I have a TC phaser with 4/8/12 stages, 4 & 8 seem best for guitar, with 8 & 12 best
on keyboards and bass, it's the XII BK phaser, so designed for bass/keys though 

MM

[Mark Hammer]

Well there you have it.  Both theory and experience suggest that moving up higher than 6-8 stages gets you into the range of diminishing returns for guitar and bass.

Before we totally dismiss >8 stages, though, do consider that the MXR Phase 100 has 6 swept stages and 4 fixed stages, and has often been a pleasing choice for gutarists.  How much more it delivers than 4 stages, though, I haven't enough experience to say.