Big Muff - I've had a few ideas

[Papa_lazerous]

Ok I built a Muff clone a while back using one of the many schems about used 2N5087's so its a PNP circuit think the schem is most similar to that of the Ram's head version anyway....

I found a few things.....

First my Muff sounds really cool with my rangeaster before it

Second I feel the tone control could be much greater improved with Bass Mid Treble.

I just so happen to have more than enough parts laying around to put another muff circuit together on breadboard and even have some OC44's laying around.  So would it be feasable to morph a rangemaster esque circuit before the input of the muff clone all in one box so I can stomp one switch to put the muff on and off and stomp another switch to go straight into muff or via treble booster?  I figure this will be ok but incase there is more to this than what I've thought of let me know what you think or if you can think of any pitfalls

The tone side of things I am not too sure how to impliment it so I am hoping for some guidance here    I am wondering if I can just copy the tone stack from somewhere else but I would rather have an understanding of the whats wheres and whys so I figured I'd ask this

[Shepherd]

This is worth looking into, if you haven't already.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=51690.msg388556#msg388556

[sfr]

I love boost into distortion.  My favorites lately are LPB or Brian May Treble Boost into a Distortion +.  One thing to watch out for is that with diode-clipping distortions, sometimes just the boost on it's own is louder than the boost into the distortion, so if you turn one off, you get louder and cleaner; which doesn't realy sound natural at all.  Probably not a problem with the added gain stages and amount of level on tap in a BMP, but something to watch out for.  That and spacing the footswitches too close together.  Sucks to hit both when you only want to hit one.  Might want to turn a box sideways.

Yun's thread that Shepard linked above should tell you all you need to know about getting the tone stages right.  I find just seperating the bass/treble is enough for me, and any EQ I need fancier than that can come from the amp, but depending on how much of a tonal pallette you want at your fingertips (or rather, your toes) I can see the middle control being useful.

[Processaurus]

Sounds pretty much like what EH did with their newish "Metal Muff", a big muff with a three band eq and a top boost footswitch.  No reason why you couldn't do the same and succeed. 

Jack Orman's amz has some more good info on mods to the tonestack of the big muff, including I think the pot to change the amount of mid notch in the muff.  That and the muff tonestack does pretty much what a 3 band eq would do, and its real easy.

Now a muff with sweepable mids like the metal zone would be so hot.  Probably as many parts as the actual big muff to add it, but I think it would scream.

[petemoore]

  sfr...boost into Dist...lovely, fun to dial in sounds this way.
  An idea I favored but never really perfected is to have a boost/distortion box with a BP switch on each one, but, when the distortion is OFF, that also puts a major attenuation on the pre-boost. In this way a hefty amount of pre-boost [so you can blast the dist's input, adjust the distortion output...like you do for heavy clipping] can be added to the dist, but when the dist is turned off, the booster is likewise attenuated so as not to blast your amp and ears to bits !
  Starts turning into another knob and switch, less than 'intuitive' controls [ie some knobs 'do nothing when'...], but could be set up to get 'that': boost that sounds great [not so freqkin' loud without re-adjusting] as boost only, boost into distortion for heavy clipping, and Bypass switches that don't go from around unity to 10x as loud without being re-adjusted.

[Mark Hammer]

ANY distortion circuit sounds great with a booster in front.  Why?

Distortion is a function of running out of headroom.  How quickly you run out of headroom is a function of the distance between the input signal level, the clipping threshold and how much gain is applied to the input signal.  If the signal is hot OR if there is gobs of gain in the circuit, or if the clipping threshold is low, or if all of the above, there will be more clipping/distortion.  Note as well that the "distance" is something that changes over the lifespan of a note, such that what is more than enough gain applied to the start/attack of a note to run out of headroom, may well be much less than enough when the note is 200msec old, depending on how notes decay on that instrument.  This is why some folks find that sticking a compressor ahead of a distortion to produce a more consistent level will introduce more consistent clipping acorss the lifespan of the note.  The clipping itself introduces a certain degree of dynamic compressin but that doesn't mean that the distortion is consistent across the entire note duration.  Assuring that the entire note/chord has the same relationship to the clipping threshold (after gain is applied) will make sure the distortion is consistent across the entire note/chord.

You can imagine that sticking a booster of just about any kind in front of a distortion will have the effect of making sure the signal pretty much always stays above the clipping threshold and never peters out.  Doesn't have to be a "booster" either.  Could be an EQ pedal.

Conversely, some sorts of pedals ahead of a distortion will produce interesting tones by moving the signal away from the clipping threshold.  For instance, if you stick a phaser or Uni-vibe type pedal just ahead of a distortion, the swept notches will pull that part of the signal below the point where they clip hard.  That combination of sometimes-it-clips-sometimes-it-doesn't yields a very pleasing "animated" sound.  Similarly, a wah stuck in front of a distortion sounds different than one placed afterwards.  The wah acts as a bandpass filter with much more signal passing in the focal point than above or below that focal point.  The distortion will tend to even out those differences in frequencies because it applies lots of boost until the signal hits the headroom limit.  But because some notes will have a kind of "advanatage" by vitue of the wah position/setting, those notes will be much closer to the clipping threshold and generate more harmonics.  If one places the wah after the distortion, though, unless the distortion has so much output that the wah's own headroom is exceeded, the differences between the exaggerated/passed frequencies and the suppressed ones will be much more noticeable.  Just like sticking a Uni-vibe before a fuzz, this determines what gets clipped most, and is generally perceived to be a more interesting sound by many players/listeners.

Some truly interesting sounds occur when the input signal (and gain applied internally) is so hot that the distortion electroically collapses under the current demands of the input and introduces "sag" "bloom" and a variety of other assorted phenomena that depend on he passage of time.  I like my Shin-Ei FY-2 fuxx, but it gets absolutely magicaly sick when pushed hard at its input by a boosted signal.

[Papa_lazerous]

Thanks for the link to Yun's post I must have missed that one....

I am more than likely going to put a booster roughly based on the rangemaster before mainly as thats what I run infront of the muff clone I made already that and I have a few OC44's sitting around.  May tweak it slightly to get it to fit in just right.

I was really hoping to Put bass mid and treble so I had the option of scooping the mids right out or keeping them there. whilst still being able to change treble and bass, guess I am just being fussy I will look for some more ideas on that one.  I am definately going to build it with the box at 90 degrees to what I normally use them so I can have all the knobs in a row along the top.  Not to sure on Yun's mod about removing the 560p caps though but I'll let my ears guide me there I think they are what makes it the muff if you get me.

I hope to have something up and running over the weekend maybe Sunday if I get the time Will let you know how I get on.  Mainly Tone to sort then I will be laughing

[Papa_lazerous]

Could I use this tone stack? 

http://amps.zugster.net/articles/tone-stacks#FMV

I know that I will loose some gain but then I dont know if it will be significant or not.  I could use the tone stack calculator to mess with values to get something near what I want.

If I do loose alllot of gain are there any work arounds?

[aron]

I would go for it and see how it sounds.

[Papa_lazerous]

I guess thats a good plan, got all the bits laying around I think.   Possibly not the pots but then, its not like they go to waste...

Just down a bit more looking Fender Style I think would give me the responce I am after apposed to marshall tone stack. Looking at TSC just worried about Gain Loss.  Not sure if I can do anything about that.  It may ruin how it sounds completely.  I will just have to play

[Barcode80]

just an idea, why not put the boost and dist in a box together with two switches like you normally would. but then wire two separate volume knobs to the boost section, one wired to the 3pdt that turns the distortion on, and one wired normally. then you could set different volumes for the boost based on whether the distortion was on or not. you hit the distortion switch, the boost switches to the pot wired to the switch, instantly increasing the volume to the value that pot is set to.

probably, now that i think about it, you would need to either wire with a mbp so that you could use the LED lug for this on the switch, or you could do some CMOS switching, or just place another stomp right next to the distortion with a small metal plate JB welded across them to make them into a 6pdt switch.

anyone wanna try to work up a wiring diagram? if not, i'll try when i get home. just got visio, and it kicks for stuff like wiring diagrams.

[Papa_lazerous]

I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with 

[mac]

And why not first build a BMP with your OC44s (if they have enough gain)?
I built mine with 4 ge pnp 2sb176 hfe=200 leak<200uA 


mac

[petemoore]

  Not to be confusing, diagram'd help...
  and not that Barcode80's plan isn't viable/good etc.
  But take maybe use the distortions 3pdt [or 4pdt for LED indi], anyway...use 'a' distortion switch's unused row [2 of the 3 lugs] to 'add' a volume pot to the volume pot on the booster...say put a regular 250k or so pot as booster '*regular volume', then have a ~100k pot inserted [when the Dist switch is hit] between the boosters wiper and ground *volume pot, or even across the booster outside lugs would work.
  I don't see why this wouldn't work well with a couple 'extra' lugs on a DPDT bypass switch. Led indicators are nice and all, but If I need an LED to tell if my distortion w/preboost is on...my PB'd/Distortion probably isn't working right...lol.

[Barcode80]

right, that sounds exactly like what i just said i don't know of any extra poles on a dpdt switch though. so i'm a tad confused by what you are saying.

[petemoore]

  Here's one, I like it, probably will try it.
  Use the ground side of the LED on a 3PDT, then you have a switched ground right there, taper the output/output pot using a resistance to ground through this already switched ground !