Reverb FX order strangeness... [OT]?

[puretube]

Here`s wondering:

1.) lotsa people claim the real important tube-distortion comes from the power amp (PA)
and from the phase-inverter (PI), + the influence of output transformer (OT) and loudspeaker (SPK);

2.) others say: never put reverb before distortion;

3.) most say: if you use a reverb/delay pedal, put it in the loop...


Now: IMHO each reverb (/delay), be it pedal or built-in spring unit
eventually will end up (mixed with the "clean" or "distorted" dry sound)
going into the PI, and from there via the power tubes (PT),
through the OT into the SPK.

When these four latter parts are claimed to be that important to the (cranked) "tube-amp-sound",
how does that go into context with 2.) & 3.) ?


Tell me what I`m missing!

(not: "we fix it in the mix" at the studio, and lay some Lexic*n over it in the dubs...)

[wondergibbon]

Think about what reverb is, and pardon my English. Some of this may not make sense, or I may miss something out. 

A Reverb effect, either pedal, or on amp digital or spring, is to reproduce the acoustics of a room, hall, bathroom, or other space. In words it is trying not to alter the signal, but the perception of the signal by the audience. It is trying to simulate what happens between speaker and ear. I can't put it in the words I want- but does that make sense?

It is mostly rare to want to have an effect after the reverb. It creates nasty sonics to have overdrive of a reverb as for example. 

In FX Loops designs I have seen are the loop is between preamp and amp- the last effect in the FX loop is propably the last effext [edit] except for on board reverb.

In amps a lot of the distortion is in the preamp (not exclusively but a big amount). I am worked with Rod Elliot to increase the best out of my amp and band sound (sound.au.com, he authored of the Project27 preamp + 100 watt amp that is very popular with DIY-ers) and he advice is to saturate the preamp with gain to get distortion, but control its levels with volume. We have modified to make sure that reverb is the last stage before signal goes to the amp- it is on amp, but after the FX loop.

I see no problem or inconsitentcy in what you have put forward. You are not missing anything, but it may be a portion clearer if you take one minut to think about where the reverb is injected into the signal in the cases you have cited and to what reverb is trying to simulate.

I hope that assists.

[R.G.]

1.) lotsa people claim the real important tube-distortion comes from the power amp (PA)
and from the phase-inverter (PI), + the influence of output transformer (OT) and loudspeaker (SPK);

Lots of people claim that they can hear differences between ordinary copper wire and oxygen free copper wire, too.

It is a particularly human failing to find some reason to support their own opinions even if what they have to work with is purely random noise.

2.) others say: never put reverb before distortion;

These are the ones that have listened to it both ways.

3.) most say: if you use a reverb/delay pedal, put it in the loop...

These are the ones from 2 that have actually tinkered with their setup.

Now: IMHO each reverb (/delay), be it pedal or built-in spring unit eventually will end up (mixed with the "clean" or "distorted" dry sound) going into the PI, and from there via the power tubes (PT), through the OT into the SPK.

When these four latter parts are claimed to be that important to the (cranked) "tube-amp-sound", how does that go into context with 2.) & 3.) ?

Tell me what I`m missing!

Not much, other than thinking that opinions add up like votes. They don't. Everybody has one, and having many people sharing the same wrong opinion doesn't make it any more right. You can't vote to make the speed of sound lower, or make an onion smell like a rose, even though people can easily have those opinions. Mother Nature lets you have strange opinions, all right, but She refuses to change the real world to match your opinions.

The cranked tube amp sound has lots of contibutors; and not all tube amps sound good when cranked. If you want good cranked tube amp sound you have two paths to go by: (1) get a tube amp and crank it, or (2) make a circuit that sounds that way that is not a tube amp. Then amplify that cleanly.

I'm sure you have enough equipment around to do the experiment. Take a reverb, any reverb, and a distortion, any distortion. Put distortion before reverb, and feed that into a clean power amp, verifying that you are not overdriving a the amp input. Listen. Now put the reverb before the distortion. Listen again. The sound of a distorted guitar echoing around in a resonant space is very, very different from the sound of a clean guitar with reverb that is then distorted.

While all music is a matter of taste, most people's ear apparatus responds better to the reverbed-distortion than the distorted reverb. It's a more believable sound, one that conveys a sense of a space that the music could actually be happening in.

This particular issue hits me so squarely because it's the philosophy that the Workhorse line of amps is based on. A guitar does sound very pleasant when put through an appropriately-designed tube amp circuit. So does most audio. It may not be accurate, but accuracy is not what we want for guitars, we want TONE. Having the last thing in your sound production chain - the power amp - distorting a lot, as in the cranked amp, makes it very difficult to hear those subtle shades of tone from your effects.

I realize that this is only my opinion, and that the same remarks apply to my opinions as I set out above for all opinions, and for the aggregation of opinions. But based on the number of well-informed, guitar-tone-picky people who have responded to listening tests of the Workhorse line, I'm not out there by myself.

The only good test is to try it yourself.

[caress]

i think you just need to try out the many possibilities available to you and decide which one sounds the best for yourself.  forget "what you are missing" from the amp unless you want a clean cranked amp sound...maybe reverb into distortion then into another reverb is what would work for you.  maybe you need an amp with reverb.  there are a lot of maybe's here...so just find what pleases you the most and is the best fit for the band/project you're playing with.  i happen to use a fuzz>reverb (really washy)>vibrato>fuzz>fender twin (with reverb!) on one of my keyboards in one band i play in and it is perfect.     you never know...

It's a more believable sound, one that conveys a sense of a space that the music could actually be happening in.

some people want the UN-believable...

[R.G.]

some people want the UN-believable...

Yep, they do. That's why I was careful to point out that a lot of what went before was my opinion, worth exactly as much as other opinions, and that the number of matching opinions on any one topic doesn't add up to changing any other opinion. Also that the only good way to tell was for Ton to try it both ways.

That's one reason I'm so intolerant of posts with topics like "What's the best/worst/most/least/greatest/yada/yada/yada...?" These are nearly always supportable only by opinion, and just waste space, since most people never change what they believe. They'd rather change the rest of the world to fit the opinion.

[oldrocker]

Not to hijack the topic here, but I agree R.G. that once an opinion is made you hardly ever if ever hear someone say "I guess you're right I do like it your way better."  unless it is something blatantly obvious.
Like politics, religion, right to life these are opinions that no matter how good a point you may have to make your case you won't change anyones mind.  And no please don't start posting opinions on the fore mentioned topics it's just an example.
In fact many effects I have built get criticized because of the components I used or the cheap RS enclosures I put a lot of them in.  It's just the way I do it and I could care less what people may think.  Recently there was a thread on PCB vs Perf vs Vero and I have to admit I did stick my 2 cents worth in.  Not because I was going to convert anyone to my way of thinking but I figured it's up there what the heck.  Although it probably should've been a lounge topic actually.

[caress]

They'd rather change the rest of the world to fit the opinion.

sho nuff.   

[wondergibbon]

All of these is good advice. But after 30 years playing band, I would ask you not to forget the obvious. Do not listen to your sound from the stage. Record it from the floor and relisten to it, and how the changes fits with everyone else. Sometimes these decisions should not be made by yourself.

Unless you are playing by yourself! 

Whenever we make a change to our equipment in my band we "dial in" (??) the new equipment making sure the band is as one, not competitioning against each other.

(Well, the subject did say [OT] so no apologies   )

[scaesic]

some people want the UN-believable...

Yep, they do. That's why I was careful to point out that a lot of what went before was my opinion, worth exactly as much as other opinions, and that the number of matching opinions on any one topic doesn't add up to changing any other opinion. Also that the only good way to tell was for Ton to try it both ways.

That's one reason I'm so intolerant of posts with topics like "What's the best/worst/most/least/greatest/yada/yada/yada...?" These are nearly always supportable only by opinion, and just waste space, since most people never change what they believe. They'd rather change the rest of the world to fit the opinion.

hey is the work horse amps class a in the power amp? i couldnt find much info on the net. How does it compare to the mesaboogie lonestar special?

[R.G.]

hey is the work horse amps class a in the power amp? i couldnt find much info on the net.

No, they are AB. AB is the best compromise for power out versus power dissipated in the cabinet. Plus that makes the ability to switch to other tubes simply and easily that much easier to accomplish, and that was a major goal of the design.

How does it compare to the mesaboogie lonestar special?

I don't know. We have not made direct comparisons to other amps, largely because an amp that doesn't have its own internal distortion is so far away from most other amps that it gets hard to compare - apples and oranges sort uf 'fing. It really is an amp that you should listen to and make your own conclusions.

[axeman010]

There are usually reasons why people tell you that you should ....... have your compressor first in chain, delay / reverb last etc. and it is usually based on logical & practical experience, and that's fine if you want your stuff to sound just like everybody Else's.

Many years ago, along with a lot of others at the time, I moved from loads of pedals to a rack (ART2000E) Unit. This thing still sounds great and I would never part with it, but when you chain effects together it pretty much has a prescriptive order in the way you can do it. I now personally prefer to experiment with the order and way in which I set up my pedals. For example I get a really nice (to my ears anyway) sound by placing my compressor after my chorus, great for short, sharp chord stabs !!!!

So experiment...........find what you like and what you need. After all the learned men of the day once advised us the world was flat !!!!

Axeman.

[scaesic]

hey is the work horse amps class a in the power amp? i couldnt find much info on the net.

No, they are AB. AB is the best compromise for power out versus power dissipated in the cabinet. Plus that makes the ability to switch to other tubes simply and easily that much easier to accomplish, and that was a major goal of the design.

How does it compare to the mesaboogie lonestar special?

I don't know. We have not made direct comparisons to other amps, largely because an amp that doesn't have its own internal distortion is so far away from most other amps that it gets hard to compare - apples and oranges sort uf 'fing. It really is an amp that you should listen to and make your own conclusions.

has it more in common with a low powered pa than other amps then? I know what you mean about the power thing with class a. i thought it might of been class a because of the lower crossover distortion and more pleasing overtones which i associate with being "clean".
id really like to try one out, but i havnt seen any in local stores. i really like the hubcap diffuser idea, the only diffuser iv ever seen is a little plastic ball on 4 strings. How did you overcome the hubcap from resonating/vibrating?
For a while i wanted to get a polytone mini brute because it was ss instead of tube and therefore wouldnt impart tube "warmness/tone" and be more clean. it was used a lot by jazz guitarists and bassists, so i thought it'd sound more representative of the tone of your instrument. Id quite like to try out a bunch of "clean" amps like the polytone and the workhorse. Unfortunately theyr prety tough to find.

Is there any videos/sample clips of the workhorse about online?

[R.G.]

So experiment...........find what you like and what you need.

That's always good advice. Especially for music.

has it more in common with a low powered pa than other amps then?

In a sort of conceptual sense. I hate to say that, because one of the guitar-droids reading this will read no further and dismiss it as "just a PA amp for guitars, and that's gotta sound horrible!"

It sounds like a tube guitar amp - because it is. It's a tube guitar amp but without built in mondo-distortion. You can get some overdrive at the highest settings of the volume knob. But the point was to get warm, tube sound while not macerating the sound of your effects into nothing. You still get the sound of cascaded 12AX7 stages driving a differential phase inverter driving 6L6's - 'cause that's what it is.

Another difference from PAs is the speaker. It's a no-fooling guitar speaker, a Celestion. PA speakers are usually as clean as they can be made. The Workhorse speaker has voicing and response like a guitar speaker, which as a category are decidedly not flat response nor clean.

This is much more like what guitar amps were designed for back in the late 50's, when distortion was what the manufacturers were NOT trying to get.

It's an interesting compromise. I took my 30W prototype with me to visit family at Christmas. My brother-in-law and I sat in the living room across the hall from the family room and ran the Jeckyll & Hyde distortion pedal that comes with the amp through its paces, but had the amp turned down low enough not to disturb the folks across the hall. It had the tonal quality that you get from a flat-out metal shredder, but at a volume that didn't disturb anyone, and that John and I could talk over. It's pretty close to that ideal of a cranked tube amp sound at low levels when used that way. Still plenty of bass thump to feel the notes. It didn't thin out when used that way. Handy at times.

id really like to try one out, but i havnt seen any in local stores.

Stores are still picking them up slowly. That's not surprising - a store owner is likely to be conservative about yet another "This here amp is the best thing since God breathed life into the clay. It rocks! It shimmies, it shakes, it slithers on its belly like a reptile. Yessir, this here baby is going to revolutionize music!" Mostly dealers that order them are ones that have heard one. I loved watching people listen to them at NAMM.

One of the guys would say "Have you seen our new amplifier?"
Dealer "Not really. What's so good about it?"
Salesguy "Well, have a listen to it."
Dealer "Hmmm... not bad. Not bad at all."
Then the salesguy would point out the simplicity (i.e. five knobs, no distortion), included Jeckyll & Hyde distortion, included padded cover, user biasing of tubes, acceptability of both 6L6s and EL34s, reliability and toughness features, and finally pricing. As this went on, the dealer's face would go from impassive poker face to quizzical, to interested, and often to making an order.

Check the Visual Sound web site for a list of dealers in your area, and call a few. They are out there, although we have not yet been able to litter the planet with them like Fender has done. 

i really like the hubcap diffuser idea, the only diffuser iv ever seen is a little plastic ball on 4 strings. How did you overcome the hubcap from resonating/vibrating?

First, it's thick and rigid; second, it's structural ABS and so is fairly self-damping; third, it's held on with eight screws to a glued-in 3/4" thick plywood baffle board. I'm sure it has some resonances, but I believe they're above human audio range.

For a while i wanted to get a polytone mini brute because it was ss instead of tube and therefore wouldnt impart tube "warmness/tone" and be more clean. it was used a lot by jazz guitarists and bassists, so i thought it'd sound more representative of the tone of your instrument. Id quite like to try out a bunch of "clean" amps like the polytone and the workhorse. Unfortunately theyr prety tough to find.

Yeah, the idea that an amp should play warm but clean has pretty much been washed out of the marketplace by today's mega-crunch distortion amps. But I think it's a useful idea to get back to. Keep looking. The Workhorse may not be the pefect amp for you, but given what you've said, it's one you should listen to.

[scaesic]

Yeah, the idea that an amp should play warm but clean has pretty much been washed out of the marketplace by today's mega-crunch distortion amps. But I think it's a useful idea to get back to. Keep looking. The Workhorse may not be the pefect amp for you, but given what you've said, it's one you should listen to.

awesome, it does sound pretty close to what i'm after, plus i could sell the jekl and hyde!. i already have a high volume vintage valve amp which can create those sort of overdriven tones. What i really want is a clean amp with reverb. But very often with any amp i use i end up using loads of compressors, overdrive pedals on zero gain, eq's etc etc,  just to "sort out" the tone.

incidently, one of my friends bought a vintage low powered all valve pa from ebay a while back, it sounded awesome, with different pre-amp valves on each channel. the thing is it was just far too loud. the idea of having that sort of amp at low volumes, with all the bells and the whistles included is really intresting. I'l definetly keep a look out for them, but i'm in the uk so i guess distro here is going to take quite a bit longer.

[puretube]

reply#2 is what I hoped to expect to read!

esp. the quoted 1.) / 2.) / 3.) - R.G.: we agree...

[d95err]

Fender added reverb to amps very early. Their amps were intended to play clean (distortion was more of an "unwanted" side effect). So there was no problem in having the reverb going through the poweramp.

Marshall on the other hand wanted lots of distortion and before high-gain preamps, much of it had to come from a heavily pushed poweramp. So, Marshall didn't add reverb until much later (when most of the distortion could be generated in the preamp, before the reverb).

So, the reverb-after-distortion paradigm is certainly there in classic tube amp design.