Request for information on legal topics

[The Tone God]

We occassionlly have threads involving legal matters come up on the forum. Sometimes these threads fall into disarray I believe because the topic of law has not been clearly explained here in the context of what we are doing. Without a clear and consistent explanation to reference I believe the ambiguity of the topic will continue to happen thus I think it would be worth while to have a collection of reference materials that can be used to clear up legal topics when they appear lessening the impact that those threads can have on the forum.

The main issues I see coming up here are copyrights, patents, and trademarks. I am asking the community to contribute links, threads, online and offline texts, and references to these and any other legal topics that come up on the forum. Hopefully this can become part of the FAQ to help deal with these topics when they come up.

This thread is not intended to have a legal debate so please keep it to information.

Thank you everyone.

Andrew

[R.G.]

Great minds run in the same rut.

Long ago, one of us was an IP attorney. Or said he was. I tried to persuade him to write up exactly this guide so I could post it and we could have just such a reference.

He didn't, so I didn't.

IMHO, posting links to other junk... er... content on the internet about this is doomed to descend into a morass of semi-factual stuff. If you want this to work, get an experienced IP lawyer to donate his/her time to writing it.

That will not be enough in the end. The sad thing about law is that there are no fixed principles. Modern legal practice depends heavily on new "interpretations" - for that, read "make up something new" -  of legal precedent. One real IP attorney's opinion is just that, an opinion. Another IP attorney can and will have a different opinion, and then we're still headed for court. Ain't justice grand?

The fact is, if you're looking at doing something that even might get you into legal trouble, you simply must consult your own personal lawyer that you paid. Only then do you have a real person looking out for your interests. Nothing you read on the internet can do anything except negative advice - don't do whatever it is and you won't get into trouble.

[The Tone God]

If there is a IP lawyer abouts on the forum I would encourage them to contribute. I know we have a few people who have experience in these topics that could possible contribute.

I have talked to a few lawyers about this but the prevailing attitude they seem to have is they do not want to write any legal advice for public consumption for free for fear of legal action against themselves so it is hard to get a committed authoritative person to contribute. Besides after all some of the material they would contribute would probably be result of their own opinions and we all know the opinion of the court is the only one that matters. Another issue I believe will be that this forum is a global resource and laws do change from country to country so it cannot be something absolutely concrete. Just the explanation of basic concepts and not a full definitive guide as the would be nearly impossible. For these reasons it will have to be online information that is in the public domain that we will have to use. I do believe we should follow the common practise of putting a big disclaimer telling people to consult their own lawyers about the law in their area.

As the forum gets larger I think it is becoming a case of better to have something then nothing and rehash the same arguments.

Andrew

[R.G.]

OK, so let's start with this.

The proper answer to "...but can I get sued if I use the letter "R" in my pedal..." would then start with 
"Read the IP basics and then ask a more pointed question."

A Guide to On-Line Intellectual Property Basics

Overview of Copyrights	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
The Digital Millenium Copyright Act	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act
What are Patents, Trademarks, and Copyright?	http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#ptsc
Copyright Basics	http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/copyright/basics.htm
Trademarks Basics	http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/
Patent Basics	http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html
A Copyright Refresher	http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/copyright/copyrightrefresher.htm
The US Government's Copyright FAQ	http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

[Jay Doyle]

This is a great and admirable idea, though I have a feeling that it will be used as much as the FAQ...

[amz-fx]

Andrew,

The article on my website specifically about pedal cloning has been reviewed by several IP attorneys and is accurate on the points that it addresses... 

regards, Jack

[The Tone God]

The article on my website specifically about pedal cloning has been reviewed by several IP attorneys and is accurate on the points that it addresses...

I am collecting a few resource to add to the list. Your article is on the list. Thank you for that effort BTW. I have appreciated it.

Andrew

[The Tone God]

Patents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent

Trademarks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark

Copyrights:

http://www.muzique.com/copyright.htm
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
http://users.goldengate.net/~kbrady/copyright.html
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p03_copyright_notices

Fair use:

http://www.publaw.com/fairusetrade.html
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/

Cloning:

http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm

Andrew

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Don Lancaster (author of the Active Filter Cookbook, CMOS Cookbook etc etc) believes that the patent system is deeply flawed, and that it is only very rarely is it worth patenting anything www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf

[toneman]

Thanx Paul.
I was gonna post the Tinga link.
For the small guy(girl), patents really are not worth the time, effort, and money.
It all comes down to how much money U have to "defend" your patent.
Keep building those clones!!!!

[Ben N]

I am a lawyer, but my last IP experience was acing my third-year IP course in 1990. I think the idea of posting links is good, a general FAQ-type outline specifically for pedal builders also, if it is authoritative.  OTOH, answering all of the questions that come up can get very dicey, as in practicing-law-without-a-license dicey. This is why I rarely chime in to those threads, except to say things like, "be careful." So perhaps the best thing is to post this information here, and then, as much as possible, refer people here, tell them to "be careful", and, as a last resort, tell them to get a lawyer.

Ben

[Jay Doyle]

I think that the best advice would be to tell everyone to do your own artwork (PCB layouts, schematics and enclosure artwork) and come up with a non-derivative name for the effect.

Or maybe to (GASP!) actually come up with a new circuit instead of ripping someone else off, that way, you don't ever have to worry about a damn thing...

[R.G.]

So perhaps the best thing is to post this information here, and then, as much as possible, refer people here, tell them to "be careful", and, as a last resort, tell them to get a lawyer.

I think that the best advice would be to tell everyone to do your own artwork (PCB layouts, schematics and enclosure artwork) and come up with a non-derivative name for the effect. Or maybe to (GASP!) actually come up with a new circuit instead of ripping someone else off, that way, you don't ever have to worry about a damn thing...

My sentiments exactly. If you don't know where the edge is, and don't want to hire a reliable guide to where it is, why stand anywhere near it?

[puretube]

I think that the best advice would be to tell everyone to do your own artwork (PCB layouts, schematics and enclosure artwork) and come up with a non-derivative name for the effect.

Or maybe to (GASP!) actually come up with a new circuit instead of ripping someone else off, that way, you don't ever have to worry about a damn thing...

YES! 




IP - thread: 

[The Tone God]

Nice stuff everyone!

Those are good points. Perhaps we should include suggestions as to how to lessen the chance of running into legal trouble when building. Things like use your own artwork, board layouts, original name checked for copyright and trademark, and so forth.

Mind you I share the opinion that its so much easier to just sell a completely original design.

Andrew

[brett]

Don't forget that the rules are substantially different in different countries.  (Some might argue that this is one of those deep/fatal flaws).

Here's some a couple of links relevant to Australians.  This one is the place to start:

http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/patents/

This one seems good, too.

http://www.patentsonline.com.au/

I have a provisional Australian patent, which I obtained through lots of researching and paperwork.  I can't recommend going through the process.  OTOH if you feel you have a good new invention and really want patent protection, filing it youself saves about $15,000 for a simple invention and $50,000 for a typical one.

PS Be really careful in reading material from all sources:
Although patenting is mostly run by government agencies, they mostly operate as businesses for profit, and to encourage extra business and extra profit, they refer to many examples of successful inventions and profitable patents.  Their material is pretty close to false advertising IMO. 
A patent has no intrinsic value.  It is a piece of paper and that doesn't mean anything until there are lawyers fighting over it, and a learned judge trying to separate fact from fiction, and lots of money being thrown around...

[MartyMart]

I've only looked seriously a patenting one idea, about four years ago with the help of
my brother in law who runs a large company producing medical items.
It just was not worth the cost, even for European patent, it was around £7,000.00 to
have that, worldwide was nearer £25,000 !! AND they are up for challenge/abuse
anyway ...... OK if your a HUGE company like Peavey, who defend their patents quite
ruthlessly .

MM.

[Dirk_Hendrik]

Marty,
Why do you think tose big boys have their own department for patenting? Saves literally thousands.

I do like the point that Brett brings up. This board has a lot of international members for which different sets of rules apply. Either country wide or EU or US  wide. Therefore stuff that may seem logical to US members based on their justice system will appear completely unreal to EU members. Let alone for places like russia or China where the justice system is way too  occupied with other matters.

[Jay Doyle]

I do like the point that Brett brings up. This board has a lot of international members for which different sets of rules apply. Either country wide or EU or US  wide. Therefore stuff that may seem logical to US members based on their justice system will appear completely unreal to EU members. Let alone for places like russia or China where the justice system is way too  occupied with other matters.

Understandable point, but I would venture to guess, though I have no proof or experience, that if you follow my advice above, you will be kept out of trouble no matter where you are...

[The Tone God]

I do not want the information to be too U.S. centric as well as I do recognize the international legal issues this forum presents which is why we need to keep the core concepts somewhat general and also put the disclaimer on the information recommending seeking advice from a personal lawyer.

At the same time it should also be recognized that many of the effect manufactures are still based in the U.S. thus the U.S. laws will often be the ones in play.

I'll hunt down some of the equivalent information for other countries.

Andrew