Any experience with board manufacturers and eagle .brd (or other) files?

[gaussmarkov]

please share any experience with pcb manufacturers and layouts produced with eagle.  i have never done this, but i recently helped someone work this out with futurelec.com.  what surprises or glitches have come up?  what sort of preparation did you do that was not explicitly requested by the manufacturer?  did you put several layouts on one board?  any design rule issues?  remember that many of us

• have no professional knowledge to fall back on and
• that the typical project is one-sided and
• smaller than a eurocard (3.9" x 6.3")

cheers, gm

[gaussmarkov]

bump

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Not everyone takes Eagle files, I found a list of some who are supposed to:
                       http://www.pcbexpress.com
                        http://www.rdcircuits.com
                        http://www.circuitboards.com
                        http://www.graphicsproductsinc.com
                        http://www.teknicircuits.com
to say nothing of PCB pool (expensive) and Olimex (cheap) in Europe.

Searching google groups is a good way to find a lot of reports of DIYers using PCB houses, if you use the right words.

[Gladmarr]

...don't forget futurlec.  As much as people have mixed results with them, I've always gotten what I've paid for and then some....

http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml

...by the way, thanks for the list, Paul, it always helps to have more options.

[gaussmarkov]

yes, thanks paul!  olimex looks interesting.  they seem really helpful:  for example, it seems that they will "panelize" a board (repeat a layout on a single board) and cut out the individual circuits at no additional cost.  fwiw, cadsoft.de has a list of board manufacturers that accept eagle on their site as well.  has anyone used olimex?

one kind of information that might be helpful is to know some of the details to look out for.  the person that asked for my help with futurelec needed to indicate the edges of the board and we figured out that this was supposed to be accomplished with the DIMENSION layer in eagle.  once you know, it isn't a big deal but futurelec wasn't giving the sort of feedback that would sort the problem out.  on the other hand, futurelec was giving enough information to see that there was a problem.  they sent proofs of the image to be etched before proceeding, which is great. 

does anyone have similar experiences that would help avoid such confusion?

cheers, gm

[MKB]

I'm not familiar with Eagle software, but have sent many boards out for fabrication.  I used to use Gerber files, in particular Extended Gerber or RS-274X format.  This is the standard format that can be imported into nearly any fab system, also the Extended Gerber format includes the apertures in the board file so you don't have to generate an aperture file separately.  You should generate Extended Gerber files for the solder layer, soldermask layer and silkscreen layer (if used), and make a drawing of the board with the dimensioned outline,  also include an outline of the board perimeter in the solder copper layer.  You'll also need to include a drill file, which gives x/y locations of all the holes tracked to drill size.  The board house should be able to panelize the board in their software very easily from the Gerber files. 

Of course all this assumes Eagle software will export Gerber files, which it should I would think.

[gaussmarkov]

hi MKB,

thanks for sharing your experience.  i have seen explanations of generating gerber files on the web, but i have not read them yet.  one of the attractions for hobbyists of using houses that accept eagle .brd files is that they take care of all that.  AFAIK, all of the gerber files and the drill are generated by eagle from the .brd file.

and that is one of the reasons why there are hidden risks that i would like to try to tease out.  self-taught eagle users can easily omit needed information or insert needlessly complicated material.

here's another example, i think.  i was looking at the olimex site that Paul mentioned above and they talk about the benefits of keeping the number drill sizes low.  for us, one drill size is fine but we may not realize that we are using many more when we pull components out of the various eagle libraries.

and cruising through various board house sites, i see what looks to me like variation in what a house will do to help you use up your eurocard efficiently.  more generally, they seem vague (to me) about what sort of give and take there will be.  i was surprised to learn that futurelec sent proofs before manufacturing the board.  i expected, and still do, that many houses just process what you send to them in a default manner that professional customers already understand.  so, unless we can share experiences, the only way to figure out what works is by trial and error.  send in your file and see what comes back:  "oh.  dang.  there's all this copper fill that i didn't want.  how did that get there?  and it's really, really close to my traces.  i'm going to have a lot of solder bridges that i don't want."   that sort of thing.

cheers, gm

[gaussmarkov]

Of course all this assumes Eagle software will export Gerber files, which it should I would think.

yes, it does. 

[MKB]

i was surprised to learn that futurelec sent proofs before manufacturing the board.  i expected, and still do, that many houses just process what you send to them in a default manner that professional customers already understand.  so, unless we can share experiences, the only way to figure out what works is by trial and error.  send in your file and see what comes back:  "oh.  dang.  there's all this copper fill that i didn't want.  how did that get there?  and it's really, really close to my traces.  i'm going to have a lot of solder bridges that i don't want."   that sort of thing.

cheers, gm

Actually getting proofs for a PCB design is a very good thing, I used to get them on every design as a PCB house usually has to tweak your design a bit to make it manufacturable; they may add thieving (areas of unconnected copper added to even out etching thickness) and change pad and drill sizes to streamline the manufacturing process.  It is easy to get a design that has say 1 or 2 holes with their own special drill size, it makes sense to increase or decrease the drill size a few thousandths to eliminate that size.

Another help is to send a readme text file that explains the way you want the board made.  Here's an example from a past design:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
08\22\00

RE: PCB# ******

The files for this PCB in ******.ZIP are as follows:

******.TOP   Top\Component side copper
******.BOT   Bottom\Solder side copper
******.PWR   Inner power layer
******.GND   Inner ground layer
******.IN1   Inner signal layer 1
******.IN2   Inner signal layer 2
******.SMT   Top\Component side solder mask
******.SMB   Bottom\Solder side solder mask
******.SPT   Top\Component side solder stencil
******.SST   Top\Component side silkscreen
******.SSB   Bottom\Solder side silkscreen
******.DRD   Fabrication drawing
THRUHOLE.TAP   Excellon format drill file (Date:08\22\00)
******.IPC   IPC-D-356 netlist (for bare PCB test)
INSERT.TXT   Component insertion list
XREF.TXT   Cross reference list
README.TXT     Text file

The Gerber files are in RS-274X (Extended Gerber) format.

Please use the supplied IPC-D-356 netlist to verify Gerber plotting and use for bare PCB test.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is for a 4 layer board with silkscreen on top and soldermask both sides.  Hope all this helps!

[gaussmarkov]

well, this is an oldish thread but it still seems like the place to report back on my first experience with a fab house.

i used olimex for a two-sided board.  here's a pic:



all in all, i think this can be very worthwhile.  all i had to send was the Eagle layout file.  how simple is that?

the tricky parts have to do with getting a few specs right (width, drill, clearance).  olimex checks for these also.  and some of them are automatically satisfied by the gaussmarkov eagle libraries.  then there's 5 working days max for manufacture and 9 days airmail from bulgaria to california.  communication was very good:  quick response and to the point.

i recommend them, gm

[scaesic]

How much did that cost you? the olimex pricing page is pretty confusing.

[R.G.]

How much interest is there in an advanced update to "PCB Layout for Musical Effects" covering artwork generation, care and feeding of Gerber, artwork submission, etc. etc.?

[gaussmarkov]

How much did that cost you? the olimex pricing page is pretty confusing.

it was $33 for one panel, which had 3 boards on it.  $3.30 for more than 100 holes on the panel.  and $9.00 shipping.
so all told, about $15 per board to my door.

How much interest is there in an advanced update to "PCB Layout for Musical Effects" covering artwork generation, care and feeding of Gerber, artwork submission, etc. etc.?

i would certainly be interested.  it would expand the board houses that i could use.  using eagle, i have generated the required files and looked at them with a free viewer.  but i have not tried submitting the artwork directly.

thanks, R.G.  i hope more people chime in. 

cheers, gm

[Processaurus]

How much interest is there in an advanced update to "PCB Layout for Musical Effects" covering artwork generation, care and feeding of Gerber, artwork submission, etc. etc.?

The interest can only increase as PCB fabbing places steadily get cheaper/more competitive.  I personally would read that chapter with great interest.