Learning to create pcb layouts

[cheeb]

I'm trying to learn to create pcb layouts in DIY Layout Creator from a schematic for the first time. It's going fairly smoothly but I'm having to constantly move stuff around and go back and redo and it's a lot harder than I thought. Since I accepted the challenge to learn this and be a contributing member of this forum, I'm doing everything I can. Are there any tips, hints, tricks, methods, or anything you guys can give me to help me along my way? Please?  Thanks!

[Aharon]

The few I did I did on paper first.
You are going to need a big eraser.
Once you have it do with software,my advice.
Aharon

[Dragonfly]

It takes practice. In the beginning,  tried to place IC's / transistors ? etc first, and work my way "outward" from there. That method works quite well. Now that Ive had a bunch more practice with it, I'm able to "visualize" the layout beforehand, So I tend to work from input to output.

Try the "build from the center out method...

hope this helps,
  AC

[tcobretti]

Yeah, I've done a bunch of vero layout, but just started designing PCBs.  The big things are don't give up (you'll get better) and start with simple circuits.  In some ways, the hard part is finding a fairly simple circuit that hasn't been done many times already.

[choklitlove]

good advice.  i have no desire to layout huge circuits.  and really, i only make layouts when i find a circuit that i want to build and there aren't available layouts for it.  +1 on starting from the ics/transistors and moving outward.  also, +1 on drawing it on paper first.  print out a nice grid w/ dots or use paper with a grid on it.

[ulysses]

when designing a pcb i first recreate the schem making it as simple as possible (removing jumps etc) then export the netlist - then import the netlist into a pcb drawing piece of software - start off with a basic layout of the parts as they are in the schem then move things around  - showing visible nets as you move things around makes it easier.

start very small and build your way up.

EDIT: if you are making something to contribute for everyone else you may want to do it on vero so everyone can have a go without to much trouble. my last couple have been on vero so other people can make them - i have a couple more in the works - dont expect to much thanks though - expect about a 3% thankyou reply to view rate.

cheers
ulysses

[cheeb]

It's gonna be a while before I have anything somebody can use, I think. I'm trying to do MartyMart's Mr. Drive so I can't show everybody anyway, because you have to ask for it IIRC. And good thinkin on the IC-outward method. A lot of the problems I came across were because I had a trace running to one pin where nother would have to run and then I'd have to go back and move everything around. Thanks for the quick replies guys! Keep'em comin!

[Dragonfly]

It's gonna be a while before I have anything somebody can use, I think. I'm trying to do MartyMart's Mr. Drive so I can't show everybody anyway, because you have to ask for it IIRC. And good thinkin on the IC-outward method. A lot of the problems I came across were because I had a trace running to one pin where nother would have to run and then I'd have to go back and move everything around. Thanks for the quick replies guys! Keep'em comin!

Dont forget that traces can be run UNDER the IC

AC

[cheeb]

OK so I've covered the whole circuit. What next? I think I've got it but I had to shift stuff around so much that I'm afraid I messed something up and you're all gonna laugh at me. Actually, I'm 100% sure I'll be laughed at. 

[tcobretti]

I think the likelihood of you being laughed at is actually pretty low.

Post your PCB and we'll tell you if it looks right.

[markm]

One thing that's helpful is looking at the Tonepad layouts.....Francisco is quite talented at putting the puzzle pieces of circuits together and it truly is "Art"! I've incorporated some of his "tricks" into some of my layouts. It's because of him, RG and JD Sleep that most of my off-board connections are all at the top of the board!! 
Like Andy stated, run traces under components to save space and make your job a bit easier.
Check out some of the popular sites with good layouts, I've learned alot from looking around the net. Just looking at how other people do things with a schem is a learning experience and can be very enlightening at times to say the least.
Also, doing a layout from a schem truly is the same as doing a puzzle, and the more you do the easier it'll be.

I think the likelihood of you being laughed at is actually pretty low.

Post your PCB and we'll tell you if it looks right.

tcobretti is right, post it up, the guys here will certainly help out and what better way to learn!

[cheeb]

Ok here it is.

[cheeb]

Sorry for the x2 post, but I didn't get the running traces under the components thing until it was too late. That would have made it lot easier to follow. Oh well. I'm sure this version won't be the final version that works fer sher.

[Daniel]

Sorry for making a question at your topic but its the same subject =]
I'm trying to draw a layout too and a few tips would be nice. I've only made a few PCBs and basically power supplies using some voltage regulator which are normally really small builds.
What I'm doing right know is a Soldano Supercharger GTO. I have already drawn the power supply PCB but I'm having a hard time thinking how I would do the layout for the pedal.
Do you guys normally draw the schematic than export it to the PCB creator with all the components already connected and than try to arrange them? Cause i tried that and I always get lots of lines crossing at some point =/
Think I'm going to try to do it as I normally do. Draw the PCB layout just by looking at the schematic.

And are there any thing that i SHOULD NEVER! do when drawing a PCB for a tube pedal? I read on another topic that I shouldn't have the coupling caps near the plates of the next stage... are there any other tips?

Well... this a project that its probably take awhile mainly because my semester at university starts tomorrow =/

[rockgardenlove]

Cheeb-try filling up the big empty space in the middle of the board.

The first thing that comes to mind for tube stuff is to have the heaters not on the PCB.

[Meanderthal]

 Not having a schematic to check against, the only thing that jumps out at me is the jumper from R4 to C8 goes right over top of a ground pad. Moving that out from under the jumper would eliminate a possible problem...

All the rest is cosmetic and size... no biggie...

And, that's a mighty fine first try! I've seen much worse...

[choklitlove]

another thing you'll probably run into when you actually build that:  resistors need to have 2 holes under them to lay down nicely.  most capacitors don't need any, including electros.  diodes need one hole under them.  the good thing about laying resistors out with two under them is that makes two paths that can run under them.  the best thing to do is take a perfboard and stick the components in it to see what spacing they need to lay correctly.

another suggestion is run a ground line around the outside.  that is really standard practice if you look at GGG's and tonepad's layouts.  good luck!

[cheeb]

Thanks for taking the time to look at this guys. I really want to get good at this.

Cheeb-try filling up the big empty space in the middle of the board.

I tried to condense a little of the space.

Not having a schematic to check against, the only thing that jumps out at me is the jumper from R4 to C8 goes right over top of a ground pad. Moving that out from under the jumper would eliminate a possible problem...

All the rest is cosmetic and size... no biggie...

And, that's a mighty fine first try! I've seen much worse...

Thanks! I also moved the jumper and the ground pad.

another thing you'll probably run into when you actually build that:  resistors need to have 2 holes under them to lay down nicely.  most capacitors don't need any, including electros.  diodes need one hole under them.  the good thing about laying resistors out with two under them is that makes two paths that can run under them.  the best thing to do is take a perfboard and stick the components in it to see what spacing they need to lay correctly.

another suggestion is run a ground line around the outside.  that is really standard practice if you look at GGG's and tonepad's layouts.  good luck!

The bold lines are ground lines. I forgot the grounded area on top until it was too late. A big DUH about the resistors. I can stand them on end since I intend to put this in a BB, but if space is a constraint then I've screwed myself. Running lines, especially multiple lines, under components would have made excellent sense in this and probably wouldn't have made it so dang ugly!
Oh well. V2.0!!

[Meanderthal]

 Don't feel bad, even the mighty TS808 has its resistors standing on end. Good enough for Maxon...

[cheeb]

I'd like to start mounting my switch to the board. Would it be smarter to go switch-outward or stick with IC-outward? (Barring the layout I just uploaded)

Does this layout look functional? What else would you guys change?

Do you recommend scrapping it and starting fresh on V3.0?

BTW, I started at the input on the schem and worked my way to the output. Good idea in theory, BAD idea in practice.

It's pretty crazy how much I've learned about schematics and how a circuit works, particularly an IC through this. Me likee!