Suggestions needed...

[aron]

Please don't abuse the good natured help of others only to try and profit from their help. You guys know if you are making profit from the good natured help of others. Think about it.

I just got another PM from someone that is "disgusted" and leaving. OK, fair enough but my email is listed, PM is available; it would have been great to have voiced concerns TO ME before blowing up at me and leaving.

Wow, what a nice thing to do - be continually upset over time, decide it's time to leave and leave me a crappy letter only to not leave any helpful suggestions.

Look, fine, leave my crappy letters, but do me a favor, before you leave, if you've got any solutions then let me have them. Otherwise it's just not going to help any.

I've been thinking about this problem of people making money off of others. Basically taking ideas and selling them... Of course it's wrong - BUT, I don't think this forum is the place to put people on trial. If you think otherwise, let me know.

Maybe the answer is for members to clearly indicate up front whether they sell pedals as a business or not?

Obviously I don't have the answer to this problem, I welcome your suggestions.

[aron]

What is most interesting to me is that we are all easily connected more than ever before. Yet the same issues come up - someone getting upset over a long period of time and no communication to me at all.

Then at the end, a blow up occurs AT ME. Interesting.

[KerryF]

All I will say is that I tried to kindly PM you asking you to close the AC/RC thread (as it was causing problems and wrongly accusing me for things).  You agreed and closed it.  Next day, no notification, I see it opened back up.  Thats just one thing I will post.  I think I should post anything else.

I dont mean to be mean to you, but I just though the problem was solved, then it opens back up and starts again.

[Meanderthal]

 Just wanted to let all know it wasn't me who sent the PM. Coincidence, and I'm not 'leaving', just taking a break. I'm very thankful to all of you for everything, and have no ill will towards aron or anyone else. I'm sorry to hear that someone else is leaving.

Aron, I'm sorry, I don't have any suggestions besides those I've already made, and none of that was much help. I wish I had the answers. You do a wonderful job as it is.

I apologize to any and all I've offended.

John

[markm]

John,
I will surely miss you as I have enjoyed your posts and communications, good luck to you!
I think I can speak for most of us here and, I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds but the door is always open.
No suggestions from my side at this time Aron. I'm a bit surprised at some of the "shake-ups" lately but, I have seen this happen on other forums from time to time and I hope we can hold it together here.
This is still the best on the net IMO, the rest are like a bar brawl as opposed to our normally friendly exchanges here.
Things have a way of working out on their own sometimes, maybe we'll get lucky. 

[Papa_lazerous]

Ok I'm not a big poster....  But I log on here for many hours each day.  I use this forum to learn and see it as a social thing too as I have made some friends here, who I would otherwise not know.

As I shadow the forum I have seen the recent trend and the way things have been going.

There are too many people joining and saying "this doesnt work why" without reading up or searching and getting angry when nobody can or will help them

or "I'm repairing this for money" and expct somebody to give up their time for free to fix something for somebody who hasnt got the skills or done their homework in the first place.

However on the whole everyone here is really good and extremely friendly. I was a new boy here and not that long ago in the grand scheme of things.  But I wouldnt like to think I took the libertys that some have taken.

It seems that people are getting fed up repeating themselves, because people are too lazy to read the wiki and any old posts and the what to do if it doesnt work section.

Maybe there is a way round this, how about the forum being lounge, beginner etc and the nitty gritty build your own stompbox section is only open to 50 posts or more members. that would gve people who are new long enough to learn the ways of the forum before jumping in

Maybe I am way off the mark but I thought it might be a good idea to suggest something.


Regards
John

[jlullo]

aron,
Coming from one of the "newer" guys, I want to apologize on behalf of any of us who have abused the generousity of you guys.  You all know how much most really appreciate you all, and if there is anything I can do, please let me know.  I really want to keep this place from going down the tubes. 

We all need to support each other, if for no other reason, we have one common interest.

Jonathan

[slacker]

Sorry to hear you've been getting crap off people. I know there's been a few unpleasant discussions recently but I can't see that anyone's got any reason to take their grievances out on you.
I don't think there is really an answer to the issue of people making money out of other peoples work. I guess unfortunately the only answer is don't post something unless you're prepared to have it "stolen". I know it shouldn't be like this but unless you've got the will and the resources to protect your rights you don't have much choice.
I think there's another issue here though and that's that different people who come here have very different ideas about what the forum should be about and I think this is what has lead to the recent tension here. For example asking for info and then using it to go and make pedals to sell or copying other peoples' work isn't technically against the rules of the forum as far as I'm aware. However a lot of people here don't agree with that sort of behaviour as it goes against what their idea of the forum and the community is.
To be honest I think this kind of thing is bound to crop up occasionally and there's not a lot you can do about it. I think you'll find most people are happy here and appreciate your work

[petemoore]

  Grand entrances are cool and all, but the 'pass judgement, then exit, stage left' vibe often steals the show. I never had a huge appreciation for either one.
  I discovered [notice I didn't say 'invent'] some things, saw them 'exploited' or whatever...after I'd written about a concept, and that made me think mixed thoughts like...
  'He didn't even mention our discussions based on what I remember as my entering an 'introduction to' post, describing the concept', I'm mad.
  To:
  "Looks like he did the work and got a finished product up as an offering before I did, kudos!"...which only really registered after a period of time during which the madness subsided.
  Appealing to 'him' was something that wouldn't work...so for a second I thought 'you guys'...how could you let something like this happen...only for the second just before I knew that train of thought, too, would crash.
  Basically you have to just let it go mentally, since you've let it [whatever it is you let go of] be seen...it's gonna get looked at, analyzed, speculated on...many times probably, so if a schematic or what has been let go, letting go of it mentally as something protected as your's is really the only smart option...otherwise the time spent being angry will likely prevent your next cooler idea from occuring.

[Mark Hammer]

The intermittent flareups are unfortunate, but given the amount of traffic and number of members, I think we're doing okay for the most part.  I haven't seen anything of late that is any worse, or more mean-spirited, or prolonged than what has happened here in past (you know, that past that gives us our good reputation?), and certainly nothing as bad as the very worst on Ampage (and Ampage was often a cut above HC).  It would be nice to be able to say all of that was just growing pains and we're past it now, but what are you gonna do?  Human nature.  Dependable in its undependability.

Part of me wishes there was a kind of watermark on the empty field for writing posts that said in big light red letters "Be fair, considerate, and assume that others are not out to get you or humiliate you", and until you filled up the empty space, those words would be staring out at you.  People generally ARE fair, considerate, and expect the best of others.  They just forget from time to time, and when that happens, stuff slips through the cracks.

Is it possible for registration as a member to require going through some sort of automated information package that requires enough clicks that people actually see the content?

Is it possible to, once every 2 months, fill up the first page of thread-listings for a day with the same thread?: "How to peacefully coexist with others here and help this forum work well"

[black mariah]

I just don't understand it. How can anyone post something that they KNOW is almost entirely unprotectable and yet STILL get pissed whenever that thing is used by someone else? That would be like RCA turning around NOW and suing Fender for stealing "their" hifi circuit for use as a guitar amp... or Ibanez suing EVERYONE HERE for building Tube Screamers.

If you don't want people using your ideas... DON'T PUBLISH THEM.

The counter-argument is "Well, I do this for the community! Not for someone to make money on!" This is, of course, entirely stupid. For one it assumes that "the community" has never made a dime off of anyone else's work. Nope, nobody here has ever sold a Fuzz Face or Tube Screamer! NEVER!  "Hey, you can't do that! Those are MY super-secret mods to a 35 year old design! I'm the only one that can put a resistor there!"

Truly novel work is patentable. Everything else... well, it's probably been done before so you have no claim to it anyway.

To put it it bluntly, most of the people bitching need to get over their own egos and quit acting like they invented the transistor.

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, BTW. It's my view on several incredibly stupid incidents I've seen here and elsewhere recently.

[kvb]

I'm basically a nobody here, but I do know that these types of things do happen in other areas of life, in general.

As far as people getting mad at the founder/creator/nurturer of this great learning resource, here's something that dawned on me recently when I heard a friend talking about feeling used.

We all already know about the law of equal and opposite reactions. What this means for human relationships is , unfortunately, that when one does something nice for others the reciprocal action could be negative.  By trying to do something nice for others, we end up screwing ourselves.


As far as people using other's knowledge to make money:  They're smart enough to read, they're smart enough to use the web to find the info and people they want to use.  They aught to be smart enough to send another person some dough.  Money talks. It's a great way to say THANK YOU.

As far as being used is concerned, it is better to feel used than it is to feel unwanted.  Dang, as I type this I realise it seems as though Aron is in both positions.


A solution.  We all know some solutions cause more trouble than they are worth.

I think things here have been great. I will continue, when I have time, to contribute - positively - whatever I can.


At risk of seeming philosophical or sounding sarcastic I can only say - moderation in all things -

I only mean exactly what I say.                                 

[jlullo]

alright.  i think i may have come up with a solution to *one* thing.

What if we do something like this...

If someone wants to sell one of their "creations", whether it be something they came up with on their own, or by help of others here on the forum, we were to create a webstore in conjunction with this site.  Anyone can have any number up here for sale, including pictures, and a list of the people involved in bringing it to fruition.  A percentage of the sale goes right back to this website, and into the community that helped that effect to happen.

What do you guys think of something like that?  Would that work?  This way if individuals started having an actual customer base, they would get directed right to the DIY stompbox webstore to buy the acutal pedal, and maybe aron could pay for a bit of bandwith, hosting, etc.

just a suggestion.  does it seem ridiculous?

[aron]

I don't think that could work. Honestly I don't know the answer at all. I'm going to think about it some more but I don't see how you could ever compensate everyone correctly.... hmmm....

How do the open source guys handle this type of thing?

[slacker]

How do the open source guys handle this type of thing?

They have a licence, for example the GPL which sets out exactly what you can and can't do with the software or whatever. This is a form of copyright so if someone does break the terms of the licence (which does happen) then you can get the lawyers involved. Most people wouldn't have the will or the means to do that though so it doesn't really solve the problem. The other thing some open source projects do is name and shame companies that have broken the licence in the hope of getting them to stop it. Again judging by some of the comments on other forums about this sort of thing though that wouldn't work either.

[black mariah]

How do the open source guys handle this type of thing?

At least in the GPL realm it's stated quite clearly that the software can be used for ANY PURPOSE, commercial or non-commercial, as long as the terms of the license are adhered to. Still, there's bitching about commercial use because open source people tend towards the "ridiculously utopian socialist" demographic and, more often, have no REAL understanding of the GPL.

The only real solution if someone wants to keep their secrets secret... is to keep them a secret. Highway 89, anyone?

But then, that defeats the purpose of this site, doesn't it?

If a person posts here they have to make a choice. Are they willing to put their work out in public for ALL to see, or do they only want certain "good guys" to have it? If the case is the latter... well then just email it to them and keep your mouth shut about it. Otherwise DEAL WITH IT.

That's my suggestion. I could probably put it more nicely, but I REALLY have to pee... 'scuse me...

[black mariah]

They have a licence, for example the GPL which sets out exactly what you can and can't do with the software or whatever. This is a form of copyright so if someone does break the terms of the licence (which does happen) then you can get the lawyers involved. Most people wouldn't have the will or the means to do that though so it doesn't really solve the problem. The other thing some open source projects do is name and shame companies that have broken the licence in the hope of getting them to   stop it.

They also have a tendency to "name and shame" companies that haven't done a damn thing wrong as per the GPL. The aforementioned lack of understanding being the problem.

Licensing is not the answer. Lawyers are not the answer.

The only answer is to not be a whiny twit.

ARGH! BATHROOM! BRB!

[slacker]

They also have a tendency to "name and shame" companies that haven't done a damn thing wrong as per the GPL. The aforementioned lack of understanding being the problem.

Don't know about that, the examples I've seen appear to be genuine. You're right though there is a lot of misunderstanding relating to the GPL and what it means, or doesn't mean. Not to throw the thread off topic but I'm sure The Tone God will be along shortly to point out how the BSD licence is much better 

Licensing is not the answer. Lawyers are not the answer.

Agreed, like most things licensing doesn't stop the unscrupulous.

[$uperpuma]

Most of our own open source designers that I have dealt with are very gracious when I contact them for permissions/licensing terms.. Tim Escobedo, Dann Green, for example. Their requests are always reasonable.  I think an honor system should be the norm. You don't need this forum's permission to build and sell a pedal, but PLEASE, if at all possible, especially if the circuit came from one of our own, contact the published designer and see what their ideas about it are. If they ask you not to sell a pedal made from their circuit, please consider their wishes.  I know this opens the cloning grey area... but I'm mostly talking about original circuits by forumites. Lets take care of our own, at least.

[db]

Aron,
I think everyone wants something from this forum.  That's why many of us spend a lot of our time here.

Some people like to offer help, advice and support etc. and in return they get some recognition, respect and kinship.

Others want to get help with a project or want to "get into" building.

So it's give and take in both directions. 

As long as people are:
1) respectful to members new and old,
2) aware that this is a public, open access forum and that information posted is offered to everyone free of charge,

then I don't think there is a problem.

But, I do think we could do with more moderators to monitor threads.   I also think that moderators should remove threads which get out of hand - quickly.  Nipping stuff like this in the bud is key to preventing it from happening again.  People will soon get the gist.