Suggestions needed...

[The Tone God]

I mentioned this in another recent post but I will restate it here, some people have forgotten or misunderstood the purpose of this forum. Perhaps since many of other topics that are closely related are covered here people expect the forum to have some control over those extended topics (i.e. IP and legal issues) which can be somewhat understood due to human nature but perhaps people need to be reminded what the purpose of this forum is again. This forum is for the purpose of helping people build their own effects.

I have thought about this problem for more then a year believe it or not about how to handle these situations and ideological differences. Is there some mechanism that can be applied to the forum that can help ? More rules and tighter moderation ? I dislike that idea greatly. Controlled membership, restricted forums, approved thread mechanisms ? I did not come to a solution or solutions but instead came to another realization. As mean as it sounds it is NOT this forum's job to handle these situations. This forum is for the purpose of helping people build their own effects.

Why should this forum and it's members be flogged for the actions of others that do not relate to the this forum ? It shouldn't. The fact is this forum is not responsible for the information shared by persons voluntarily here, the use or misuse of any information provided here or elsewhere, and the punishing of others for use of information. This includes rumours, direct attacks, misrepresentation, and anything else negative. This forum is for the purpose of helping people build their own effects.

Granted this is a special spot on the Internet but the fact is the same rules apply here as anywhere else on the Internet, if you do not want your work abused then don't post it in public. It is your choice and responsibility not the forum's. While this may cause less contributions from members atleast what is contributed will not have strings attached to it.

It is obviously unfair to unload on you Aron and I feel empathy for negativity throw your way. People sometimes are quick to point out the bad things without realizing the behind the scenes issues that have to be dealt with in order to give them something to be negative about ironically enough. I do not speak for anyone but myself and I'm sure you already know this Aron but sometimes it has to be said, thank you.

I think the forum is just perfect for it's purpose and should not change.

Andrew

[black mariah]

Don't know about that, the examples I've seen appear to be genuine. You're right though there is a lot of misunderstanding relating to the GPL and what it means, or doesn't mean.

The only misunderstanding comes from those that don't WANT to understand. It's not an ambiguous license. The few areas where there have been questions have been promptly addressed by Stallman. I don't like the guy, but I give him credit for keeping an eye out for potential problems.

I can remember a couple of years back there was a guy selling a modified version of some GPL router software. As per the GPL, everyone that bought the binaries received a copy of the source as well. The only admonishment was that if the buyer redistributed the sources they would forfeit their warranty and wouldn't receive future updates. Well, all the stupid little kiddies got their ass over the dash about that one. There were multiple stories on Slashdot and other places bashing this guy... despite the fact that he did NOTHING WRONG as per the GPL. He fully complied and they still gave him hell.

This isn't the only example, but it's the best I can think of off the top of my head. Perception is reality and in the perception of hyper-pathetic 17 year olds that will still be in their mom's basement when they're 35... the reality is he did something wrong. Never mind that he was in full compliance with the GPL.

Not to throw the thread off topic but I'm sure The Tone God will be along shortly to point out how the BSD licence is much better 

I'd agree if he did. Not many arguments over how the BSD license works, is there?

Why should this forum and it's members be flogged for the actions of others that do not relate to the this forum ? It shouldn't. The fact is this forum is not responsible for the information shared by persons voluntarily here, the use or misuse of any information provided here or elsewhere, and the punishing of others for use of information. This includes rumours, direct attacks, misrepresentation, and anything else negative. This forum is for the purpose of helping people build their own effects.

A-FREAKING-MEN! Thread over. Tone God wins. Fatality.

[alextheian-alex]

Aron,
I think everyone wants something from this forum.  That's why many of us spend a lot of our time here.

Some people like to offer help, advice and support etc. and in return they get some recognition, respect and kinship.

Others want to get help with a project or want to "get into" building.

So it's give and take in both directions. 

As long as people are:
1) respectful to members new and old,
2) aware that this is a public, open access forum and that information posted is offered to everyone free of charge,

then I don't think there is a problem.

But, I do think we could do with more moderators to monitor threads.   I also think that moderators should remove threads which get out of hand - quickly.  Nipping stuff like this in the bud is key to preventing it from happening again.  People will soon get the gist. 

Yes, it is a matter of personal respect and ethics.  Maybe a sticky with some more stringent guidelines about what should and should not be reported to the moderators as abuse, and then actually using the "report to moderator" button to police ourselves.  i too have dropped on and off this board and others for months or years at a time because sometimes a few bad eggs make it hard to hold an adult discussion or offer advice without something being thrown in your face.

This board and all the boards like it  (and personal pages like Aron's R.G.'s etc) are a tremendous asset to the DIY community, and can be a fantastic incubator for new ideas and budding designers... if it is used that way.  I am a professional musician, and when i am not on the road I design, build, repair and modify musical and hi-fi equiptment for money.  I design each one from scratch, and personally would never and have never stolen anyone else's idea for a product to sell it for money aside from an occasional clone of loooooooong out of production gear... but I work mostly with tube amps and rack effects, so I only really do pedals for fun every once in a while, so I am only on this board to bounce ideas off people, help newbies out, and hash out engineering dilemas with other like-minded people.  This industry is fraught with idea thieves and patent pirates/squatters.  Tell me you have not noticed that a certain popular pedal will be a clone of another popular pedal save for one clipping diode ar an additional tone knob or switch of some kind...

That being said, there are some people on this board that are really only interested in either saving a buck on pedals or side-stepping the need for any real electronic knowledge by leeching other people's intellectual property.  I don't take it personally, and I HAVE had a few people sell gadgets that i basically designed for them on various message boards, but that is on their conscience--as long as they don't patent anything or sell 10,000 units.  But yes, I would like to know up front if what i am doing is fixing the dirty engineering details of a bad designer who just wants to put another bad pedal out there.

In all fairness... many of these circuits are grotesquely overpriced, so i understand where they are coming from, but the attitude is the problem: it is frustrating to see someone disrupting an online community because they are angry that nobody will do the dirty work for them, or that nobody will help them rip someone else off.  it is also frustrating when there is an in depth thread about some technical issues and someone pops in with a one-line smart-arse comment.  i have had conversations elsewhere with people that feel the same way about the attitudes of some bad eggs over here, and i know a few really sharp guys that won't come here anymore because of it... I mean, Tubescreamers are tinker-toys to an experienced designer, and we don't want to scare that kinda guy off with immaturity and bad attitudes.

So yes, I think a few more guidelines in the "read before posting" sticky combined with self-policing can go a long way.

[Rick Hardslab]

I think the forum is just perfect for it's purpose and should not change.

+1

I also stumbled on this recently:  http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=206.msg1500#msg1500

[black mariah]

That being said, there are some people on this board that are really only interested in either saving a buck on pedals or side-stepping the need for any real electronic knowledge by leeching other people's intellectual property.

I've been in and around this community for about 7-8 years (  ) now. The ONLY reason I got involved was (and still is) because I'm too damn cheap to pay $150 for $15 worth of components. I have time... I don't have money. I also don't have the inclination to learn anything about electronics beyond general "how stuff works" and troubleshooting.

I guess I'm just a leech then.

So yes, I think a few more guidelines in the "read before posting" sticky combined with self-policing can go a long way.

What guidelines do you propose? If you don't have any suggestions...

[chillhuman]

I don't think that could work. Honestly I don't know the answer at all. I'm going to think about it some more but I don't see how you could ever compensate everyone correctly.... hmmm....

How do the open source guys handle this type of thing?

Having worked in the open source community for several years the most common way to handle IP is through the GPL and LGPL. These are licenses which state that the code is open source, and that depending on the license you must either release all code connected to the GPL project you based your product on or you can do whatever you want with it. Open source software isn't about profitability, or money at all.It's about the idea that once enough information gets out there, because enough information has FREELY changed hands, and enough work gets done, we won't need monopolies like Micro$oft releasing substandard products for $500 a package when the newest distro of Linux is widely used and widely understood and free. If you want to protect the IP generated on this site, my suggestion is find a member who is a fairly experienced attorney specializing in copyright law and use the GPL and the LGPL as a base for what you need.

I personally plan on building a bank of Weak Joe compressors. Being new to the forum, and FX building in general, I will probably post questions, some of which may irritate the RTFM people, but in the end I will be able to help anyone new who comes along and wants to build one for themselves.

AX84.com is a tube amp building resource where they say you can use any of the designs for whatever you want, you just can't use the name. Something to think about.....

One thing which is done at taperssection.com is the use of tickets. When you want to say this member is good - you give them a +T. When you want to say this person stinks - you give them a -T. A lot of ts'ers say tickets are stupid, but you can usually look at a member's ticket count and tell whether they are worth dealing with or not. There are exceptions - oh yeah, and you need to have 50 posts before you can dole out tickets.

--edit to add-- BTW - thank you to everyone on this site who posts anything useful. I post very rarely, since I don't know too much, but I lurk often!

[tcobretti]

Aron,
I think everyone wants something from this forum.  That's why many of us spend a lot of our time here.

Some people like to offer help, advice and support etc. and in return they get some recognition, respect and kinship.

Others want to get help with a project or want to "get into" building.

So it's give and take in both directions. 

As long as people are:
1) respectful to members new and old,
2) aware that this is a public, open access forum and that information posted is offered to everyone free of charge,

then I don't think there is a problem.

But, I do think we could do with more moderators to monitor threads.   I also think that moderators should remove threads which get out of hand - quickly.  Nipping stuff like this in the bud is key to preventing it from happening again.  People will soon get the gist. 

It would be difficult for me to agree more with this post.  I am very sad that people are leaving over the recent drama, and I am even sadder that someone could somehow perceive any of this as Aron's fault. 

To me, nothing here has actually changed.  Tempers have flared and some abuses have occurred, but I don't think there are any new lessons to be learned here.  There will always be people who do most of the work and create new circuits, there will always be people who do what they can to contribute on a part time basis, and there will always be parasites.  It is the natural order of things.

I do think that the experiment of letting an argument run it's course has proven that all that results is ill will.  No minds were changed, no forumites saw the error of their ways. The only result has been massive amounts of negativity.

[brett]

Aron
it is a shame that you have received messages/email that is hurtful.
Please don't take it as a reflection on yourself.  To the vast majority here, you have enabled the discussions and done a great job of moderation.
The recent grief is an inevitable consequence of the people having different goals and values, and some people (including me) who get hot-headed.  

Let's not concentrate on the negatives.  Let's not waste energy on re-working the forum.  Breathe deep, everyone.  Life is good.  Stompboxes are cool.  The forum is great as it is.

[alextheian-alex]

That being said, there are some people on this board that are really only interested in either saving a buck on pedals or side-stepping the need for any real electronic knowledge by leeching other people's intellectual property.

I've been in and around this community for about 7-8 years (  ) now. The ONLY reason I got involved was (and still is) because I'm too damn cheap to pay $150 for $15 worth of components. I have time... I don't have money. I also don't have the inclination to learn anything about electronics beyond general "how stuff works" and troubleshooting.

I guess I'm just a leech then.

So yes, I think a few more guidelines in the "read before posting" sticky combined with self-policing can go a long way.

What guidelines do you propose? If you don't have any suggestions...

Sorry Mike, I didn't mean to offend... that is not what i was saying at all.  i have built PLENTY of clones for for fun and education and I don't consider myself a leech... but I don't sell them like some people do.  i just mean that there is a fine line between standing on the shoulders of giants and intellectual property theft.

As far as suggestions for guidelines... well, I was just suggesting that the moderators could give us some tips on how they would like us to keep things more orderly around here so that we can help them out as a community.  i think i would be out of line to tell the moderators how i think the board should be run.

[jlullo]

sorry about that bizzare suggestion.  I was working (for the 14th hour) and for some reason it seemed perfectly logical and the answer to all of our problems

[black mariah]

Open source software isn't about profitability, or money at all.It's about the idea that once enough information gets out there, because enough information has FREELY changed hands, and enough work gets done, we won't need monopolies like Micro$oft releasing substandard products for $500 a package when the newest distro of Linux is widely used and widely understood and free.

No. No. No. No. A thousand frickin' times NO. You exhibit the same TOTAL lack of understanding the majority of OSS advocates do.

You're right. OSS/Free Software has NOTHING to do with money. It's not even about getting rid of money. It's about SOFTWARE FREEDOM. It's about the ability to use the product you buy in any way you choose. It is NOT about sticking it to the man, high school style. It's not about the free exchange of information. It's PURELY about using your software how you want to. Anything else was tacked on via Stallman's political bent oozing all over the FSF's philosophy pages. There is nothing in the GPL regarding monetary exchange other than if you pay for binaries you are entitled to source.

Learn before typing. K?

And please, drop the @#$%in' $ already. It's childish, fifteen years old, wasn't funny to begin with, and does nothing but make the person that uses it look... well... like a childish fifteen year old that isn't funny.

Sorry Mike, I didn't mean to offend... that is not what i was saying at all.  i have built PLENTY of clones for for fun and education and I don't consider myself a leech... but I don't sell them like some people do.  i just mean that there is a fine line between standing on the shoulders of giants and intellectual property theft.

Why is it the exchange of money is so looked down upon? If someone wants to sell a few pedals to either offset their own costs or actually make a living... WHY IS THAT A PROBLEM? The information is out there, freely available. Why would you put your information into public circulation with no indication of any licensing IF YOU DO NOT WANT PEOPLE USING IT?

As far as suggestions for guidelines... well, I was just suggesting that the moderators could give us some tips on how they would like us to keep things more orderly around here so that we can help them out as a community.  i think i would be out of line to tell the moderators how i think the board should be run.

Aron just asked for suggestions. If that's not an open invitation I don't know what is. If you have an idea, throw it out there! They're just forum mods, not superhuman gods.

[mojotron]

Don't know about that, the examples I've seen appear to be genuine. You're right though there is a lot of misunderstanding relating to the GPL and what it means, or doesn't mean.

The only misunderstanding comes from those that don't WANT to understand. It's not an ambiguous license. ...

I've actually had a run in with GPL and, while it is rather simple and not ambiguous - it is a little ambiguous on how it is defended... Every GPL case seeks a settlement - so my small-time company's, small-time, lawyers are more than slightly confused. GPL is a good idea though, Linux owes it's life to GPL.

The mojotronics site is pretty old and it's been a long time since I have sold anything - I really don't want to either - I never liked building the same pedals over and over - I always hope for someone to give me a new problem to solve.... But I just do things for people I know now. So - I'm not making any money off of anyone's ideas, and when I do put a design out there I state where I leveraged what, and anyone can use my work for whatever.

I have a bit of a different view of the profit thing... While it's easy to put a some effort into some pedals and make a small profit, it's tough to make a lot of money at selling pedals unless you put in a pretty big effort into a production setup - and that is a lot of work and anyone who is successful has likely taken a big risk to do so. So it does not seem like a big deal to me - I will help anyone - I owe that not to the guy I'm helping, but rather to the guy that helped me. My effect knowledge is, for the most part, a product of this forum and I just want to contribute in my own way.

So, I'm going to try to pass on what I learned and I would hope, but not expect, everyone else to try to help others who ask questions or a curious about stuff - irrespective of what that person is going to do with that idea. If someone wants to make a buck off of an idea I think I've originated - that's fine with me - it likely started with an idea somewhere else on the forum - from one of you guys - and the sale of that pedal supports Aron or Steve in some way. It's an ecosystem.

Let's be humbled by the asset this forum is! And, not suppose that we are anything other fellow collaborators here - you help me, and perhaps in an indirect way, I help you - that's what makes this work.

My advice... I don't have any great ideas - but let's build some gear!

[black mariah]

If someone wants to make a buck off of an idea I think I've originated - that's fine with me - it likely started with an idea somewhere else on the forum - from one of you guys - and the sale of that pedal supports Aron or Steve in some way. It's an ecosystem.

True. Besides, no matter what you come up with... RG probably did it in the 70's.

[choklitlove]

i did send a PM to aron.  i hope it didn't come off as rude or anything.  i made a suggestion in it, but it wasn't a very good one.  this is really tough situation, and i'm not even sure if there is a solution that will make any difference.

[slacker]

Open source software isn't about profitability, or money at all.It's about the idea that once enough information gets out there, because enough information has FREELY changed hands, and enough work gets done, we won't need monopolies like Micro$oft releasing substandard products for $500 a package when the newest distro of Linux is widely used and widely understood and free.

No. No. No. No. A thousand frickin' times NO. You exhibit the same TOTAL lack of understanding the majority of OSS advocates do.

You're right. OSS/Free Software has NOTHING to do with money. It's not even about getting rid of money. It's about SOFTWARE FREEDOM. It's about the ability to use the product you buy in any way you choose. It is NOT about sticking it to the man, high school style. It's not about the free exchange of information. It's PURELY about using your software how you want to. Anything else was tacked on via Stallman's political bent oozing all over the FSF's philosophy pages. There is nothing in the GPL regarding monetary exchange other than if you pay for binaries you are entitled to source.

and that's exactly the sort of misunderstanding that's been going on here recently.

I mentioned this in another recent post but I will restate it here, some people have forgotten or misunderstood the purpose of this forum.
I think the forum is just perfect for it's purpose and should not change.

I completely agree. In any community or group of people you're occasionally going to get disagreements and not everyone's always going to be happy. That's doesn't mean there's anything wrong, it's just human nature.

[MikeH]

I've only been here a year and a half or so, but I've become quite attached to this place.  Building stompboxes has created a whole new level of appreciation for my favorite thing to do, making music.  I really hope that we can all be civil and keep it going strong.  One idea that people have been tossing around is the idea of an exclusive members area, where members could feel safe to post sensitive material.  Perhaps it could be by request/invite only and for members with XXX number of posts and who've submitted at least one original design of their own.  That way people would have to work to become a part of it, and therefore would appreciate what it means to be a member of an exclusive community.  Although those like myself wouldn't immediately qualify (too bad for me), it would stop the "newteekers" and those looking for a quick buck from using other peoples ideas.  Just a thought.  And I think everyone here should send Aron an email telling him how awesome this place is and how much they appreciate everything he's done.  He deserves it.

[black mariah]

I've only been here a year and a half or so, but I've become quite attached to this place.  Building stompboxes has created a whole new level of appreciation for my favorite thing to do, making music.  I really hope that we can all be civil and keep it going strong.  One idea that people have been tossing around is the idea of an exclusive members area, where members could feel safe to post sensitive material.  Perhaps it could be by request/invite only and for members with XXX number of posts and who've submitted at least one original design of their own.  That way people would have to work to become a part of it, and therefore would appreciate what it means to be a member of an exclusive community.  Although those like myself wouldn't immediately qualify (too bad for me), it would stop the "newteekers" and those looking for a quick buck from using other peoples ideas.  Just a thought.  And I think everyone here should send Aron an email telling him how awesome this place is and how much they appreciate everything he's done.  He deserves it.

...and the information would STILL get out, thereby making this a pointless expense of energy.

I'm sorry, but helping a guy tweak his reverb doesn't mean it's partly yours. It entitles you to nothing other than the knowledge you helped a guy out. I don't know much about electronics, but I'm QUITE knowledgeable in other areas. When I help someone with a 3d model by critiquing his textures, does that mean I now get a royalty? Think long and hard before you answer... there isn't that much difference between selling prints and selling pedals. Why is one contribution any less than another? Quite simply... it ISN'T.

The question is... are you here to further the community at large, or are you here to exchange arcane knowledge with the DIY Stompbox Cabal of Doom and Fuzz? If it's the second, I dare say you missed the point.

BTW, I've been here eight years or so and I wouldn't even qualify under your proposal. I don't make new designs. I can barely tweak the ones others have made.

[MikeH]

I don't make original designs either, so I also wouldn't qualify.   

I see the conflict; these people want to share their ideas and designs (be it for, giving back, bragging rights, recognition, ego-stroking, some reason - whatever), but they are afraid people will use their designs commercially, which is something they don't want.  Legality aside, it's just how they want it.  I think the only way they can make themselves happy is for them share their ideas with people who share the same fears, and whom they can trust.  I guess wether or not that can happen someplace on this forum would be a different question.

[mojotron]

If someone wants to make a buck off of an idea I think I've originated - that's fine with me - it likely started with an idea somewhere else on the forum - from one of you guys - and the sale of that pedal supports Aron or Steve in some way. It's an ecosystem.

True. Besides, no matter what you come up with... RG probably did it in the 70's.

++

Too true...

[tonefreak]

Innovators and Sellers... hence the age old battle.  There are thousands of examples of how one company profits from another's idea, and many out-do the originator.

Innovators come up with great ideas, but may not have the desire, capital, marketing savy, etc. to take it to market.  If innovators really do not want their ideas taken by another and sold for profit, then don't make it freely available.  If the innovator is truly benevolent and decides to freely share, then expect someone to profit from it.  If this upsets the innovator, then work with the system... team up with a Seller that likes your idea and will take it to market.  Build a prototype, arrange for a signed agreement and get paid.  You can even let the Seller be responsible for assembly.

Sellers... c'mon, if you take an original circuit that someone else has innovated, then compensate that person.  Consultants fees, partnership w/ profit sharing, etc.... throw them a friggin bone.  If you team up with a particularly good Innovator, it's more than worth it to get those ideas to market.  Yeah, you could probably make it yourself and just take it, but what are you going to do for the next great pedal?  It's better to align youself with an Innovator to keep the new circuits and products flowing.

I don't know if this is a solution or not, but there is a way of making both parties happy.  When ever you have money involved, greed, envy, jealousy, and resentment usually follow, and that's only because someone feels like they have been left out or taken advantage of.