Suggestions needed...

[Jay Doyle]

Yikes. Well I sure hope that a sarcastic response to a foolish comment didn't cause all of this...

First, we should all step back and consider for a moment the fact that a thread like the one that apparently caused all this trouble only comes along every few months, that the emotions in there were limited to that thread only, and for the faceless, nameless, web, was actually quite civil; no one talked about the other's mother, the swearing was kept to a minimum, I was laughing through most of it...

Look, I completely understand that if you put something on the web, expect it to be used. That is understood. That has been understood since I started this hobby about 10 years ago. I have tons of stuff that I never posted. This has nothing to do with the legal side of it, it has to do with the overall tone of the community. And as one of the flea bitten old timers, I have noticed a change in the forum community.

You have people of questionable skill acquiring just enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to actually design anything, directly (or not) advertising the fact that they build FX for profit and asking questions that are pretty obvious to anyone who HAS designed something from scratch. In my book, that is an invitation for ridicule and they deserve what they get. Now, of course they don't REALLY want 'people' to find out what they are doing, that they don't have any real skill, but 'people' isn't us here. It is the public that is going to buy their pedals. They need to keep up their reputation as a quality and talented builder and by calling out that they are hacks, they may lose business (this is why you see them asking a question here and then answering the same question on another board with that answer). Buyers don't care if you rip your circuit straight out of here, as long as you can build it. Once they find out that you have no skill or talent of your own, they may not buy from you anymore! THAT is the real issue for the 'bootweekers', loosing business, NOT offending, hurting or stealing from anyone here. They could care less about those here, as long as the mods, layouts and construction tips keep coming.

Note the thread that caused so much trouble. 1800whatever, $uperpuma, battleofmidway, wampcat1: they all sell something for profit based (IMO) on info gleaned from this site. Doug, Harry Palms, myself: we do not. Also note who PMed Aron to have that thread shut down: one of the builders. Doug and I didn't.

I don't think that many are understanding what Doug and myself may have been upset about. It isn't that people are snagging stuff and selling it. If we didn't understand that, why would Doug do what he did with the Highway 89, or why would I keep a ton of my designs off the web? The frustrating thing is the drop in respect and ethics here. No one wants to do any work anymore and every relationship is just another opportunity for thievery. I'd be mighty surprised if any of the newer bootweekers actually owns The Art of Electronics.

I think that Doug and I just had a similar meltdown at the same time when it came to the guys on here who were so obviously using this site as their R&D. So when the opportunity came, we called them out. Sure, I didn't exactly do it politely, but I wasn't responding to a polite remark towards me.

I feel that people should know the intentions of those whom they are helping.

There are obviously many here (and most 'normal' guitarists) who couldn't care less. Who cares? You are a big baby! Grow up!

Ok. Fine. Easy to have that attitude when all you do is take. And even if you are the part of the 0.1% who DOES contribute (actual design and ideas, not another slapped together vero layout from a program someone else created) and still doesn't care (really? you've put EVERYTHING up on the web?), you are an anomaly, not the norm. The fact is that to answer a question on this forum beyond "what is the best x?" you have to have put in work, sometimes considerable work, in order to get to the point where you can answer the question.

I posted a bunch of mods and advice to a circuit I've studied and experimented with extensively, a long time ago. Within a month I was looking at the 'upgrades' to a bootweekers main bread and butter pedal and noticed that a lot of the 'upgrades' were straight from my post. If you can't understand how that would be aggravating to me, then we'll never understand each other, but please empathize enough to see that I may have a point in being upset and therefore guarded with my info and advice. And I have a right to be. How could I NOT feel taken advantage of?

If you STILL think that taking whatever you want just because it is out on the web is just fine, then consider this: Doug and Dragonfly are gone. Obviously something happened that upset the both of them to the point of leaving. I guess, according to those that disagree with me, that they are being babies and should have known. Fine. But consider this: due to the actions of those that think the same way that you do, this forum no longer has two of it's best designers. Regardless of what you think of their reasoning, it was this reasoning of theirs that caused them to leave. We may not agree on the proper decorum, ethics, attitude around here, but one thing we ALL can agree on now is that Doug and Dragonfly won't be designing anything for this community anymore.

That right there is a direct result of the attitude that 'if it's out there, you can't bitch' in conjunction with people who hold no ethical standards at all directly taking and taking and taking. SO while this attitude is technically correct and legal, there are other repercussions outside the legal area and the main one is the loss of incredible designers because no one will stand up and say 'Yeah, it's legal, but that don't make it right; and I think you should stop and I'm going to say so, so that anyone else who might get upset and leave should know what your REAL intentions are so they don't help you, realize they were used, and never come back to actually contribute anything else.'

I don't envy Aron at all and I am still amazed at how much he has done and how good he does it. BUT, this site, no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish, is NOT just about building pedals. There are actual issues that come up. This happens in every hobby that can be turned into profit. Hell, there was a thing on 60 Minutes years ago about the crochet business having similar problems with people using other people designs for profit (and they were talking about a bunch of 80+ women). It is going to have to be dealt with and hiding from it, locking threads or banishing them to the lounge or saying 'get over it' is either a) not going to help or b) cause people to think it isn't worth the time to help out people who only want to profit from your goodwill. Because you have to admit with the thread that caused all of the trouble, the guys who wanted it open: didn't sell, the guys that wanted it closed: did (for the most part). But in the end, this is Aron's forum and he does what he wants. I have an incredible amount of respect, admiration and gratitude for Aron and all who helped to make this site what it is.

And with that, I too am stepping out, hopefully those with better control of their temper and sarcasm then I will be able to get a handle on this.

Regards,

Barry White

[Mark Hammer]

Nice post, Jay.

I posted something in the lounge titled "Whatever happened to...?" that was prompted by flipping through a binder of stuff from a half dozen years ago.  I don't think many folks here realize just what a fireball you were during that period.  I kept flipping and finding yet another one and another one from you.  And these were all full-fledged projects, complete with writeup and PCB layout.  Is all that stuff under wraps these days?

When kids passing by your house on the way to school climb on the fence and take an apple off your tree, you grumble but you figure "heck, EVERY kid should eat an apple a day" and think nothing more of it.  When someone backs a truck and a ladder up to your fence, that's quite another thing.

[aron]

I want to make something clear. I do believe that if someone helps you significantly with your design - or you use someone else's design, you should ask permission before selling. I believe this is the right thing to do - even if the person never said anything about commercial interests. Like if I ever start selling Shaka Pedals, Jack Orman gets some bucks

[WelshWonder]

But, I do think we could do with more moderators to monitor threads.   I also think that moderators should remove threads which get out of hand - quickly.  Nipping stuff like this in the bud is key to preventing it from happening again.  People will soon get the gist. 

I completely agree, moderators need to be in place to stop threads becoming out of hand and to issue warnings to people before they get struck off.

At the end of the day, anybody thinking they can post their own schematics and not expect someone to take their idea is a complete fool. This is common sense and people should be aware of it before posting.

I love this site. I haven't been here long but I have learned a lot off the members and I'm starting to understand principles a whole lot better. I'd just like to say thanks for a great site.

[B Tremblay]

'bootweekers'

Best.  Word.  Ever.

[jlullo]

i don't know if this would help much, but you could make layout galleries viewable only to members

[mojotron]

'bootweekers'

Best.  Word.  Ever.

LOL - I actually had to say it out loud before I understood the humor 

I'm learning a great deal from you guys.

[black mariah]

It's all about the US VS THEM, isn't it?

You know, I'm REALLY starting to feel quite unwelcome here. I guess I'm a "BOOTWEEKER" (gotta love those petty little derogatory terms people use to make themselves feel important) because I don't design my own pedals, because I'm not a @#$%ing electrical engineer, and because I spent 8-10 hours a day actually playing the guitar instead of shoving my face in some obscure opamp data sheet.

I build pedals for fun. I don't do it to learn about electronics. I don't give a damn about electronics! Never have. Never will. Does this somehow make me inferior to everyone else here?

I guess it does.

[KMS]

Please don't abuse the good natured help of others only to try and profit from their help. You guys know if you are making profit from the good natured help of others. Think about it.



Maybe the answer is for members to clearly indicate up front whether they sell pedals as a business or not?

Obviously I don't have the answer to this problem, I welcome your suggestions.

Aron,

Your post is stuck on top of the board, asking for suggestions. So I guess it is important.  I have read through many of the replies and can see nothing thus far suggested that is doable.

Over 5000 members strong, tracking problems can be a real hassle especially since you don't have adequate revenue or a Human Resources Department, a Legal Department, a Records Department, an Administrative Office, or any kind of solid Information Technology Staff and so forth.

There are many things you could do if you had such resources but even then there is no perfect solution to the problem that you posted.

Look at the problem the music industry has today because of the internet? Now these guys have big bucks and if there was a full proof way to stop hackers they would have done it by now. They have done a lot to reduce the hacking and spent a lot of money and resources for just that, and still, you can get any song you want on the web for free if you try real hard.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about what constitutes a crime such as theft, or fraud, embezzlement, or even extortion, for which any one or all of those crimes could be related to this topic where each is a long discussion in its own ranks.  But I will say this....if you take something that does not belong to you......it is called "stealing".

The bottom line on the root of the problem.....mankind has an evil heart.....for which many will steal if there is no foreseeable punishment....and some will steal even if there is foreseeable punishment.

So we know what the root of the problem is.

The only way to reduce this problem is by posting/spelling out rules and then enforcing posted punishment if the rules are broken......and you need resources to do that, which you don't have.

Given that you cannot do anything to directly reduce theft on this website then it should be posted in bold print that you cannot do anything to stop theft on this website. Now there is some CYB for you and potentially a reduction in complaints. 

You could also do a little research and find a quality group of lawyers willing to participate who would represent folks on this site who feel they have a case of copy right infringement and so forth. Then, along with your disclaimer about how you cannot stop theft, also include the contact information for the lawyers and inform the members that if they steal, then they could potentially go to jail and/or pay fines. As the lawyers you have listed win cases you could also post the number of folks that have been punished for their crimes (leaving out the details of course....just the number of cases awarded to the plaintiff).

Of course this will not stop folks from stealing, but it could potential reduce the problem and should not cost you a dime.

Myself, I have developed a few original designs and posted some of them in the archives....my intent was to give the information to all as my way of saying thanks for your help.  Any of my ideas and designs that I post on this web site are free for the taking, not because I don't think I can't stop theft on the web, but because that is just the way I am.

I guess my feathers might get a little ruffled if I found out someone took my design and made in excess of 100K, but.........nobody on this site will do that in my lifetime......so who gives a rats whisker.

I would leave the threads alone, don't delete, don't lock, as those threads are potential evidence and you don't want to tamper with that. 

If folks are winning, crying, complaining, that they got ripped off, or that someone has defamed a member calling so-and-so a thief or name calling, so on and so forth.......let it run.....and tell them to call their lawyer.

You can't be all things for all people Aron, and I want you to stay focused on what you do best.........keeping this awesome website up and running.

Cheers 

My 2 cents

[tcobretti]

It's all about the US VS THEM, isn't it?

You know, I'm REALLY starting to feel quite unwelcome here. I guess I'm a "BOOTWEEKER" (gotta love those petty little derogatory terms people use to make themselves feel important) because I don't design my own pedals, because I'm not a f*cking electrical engineer, and because I spent 8-10 hours a day actually playing the guitar instead of shoving my face in some obscure opamp data sheet.

I build pedals for fun. I don't do it to learn about electronics. I don't give a damn about electronics! Never have. Never will. Does this somehow make me inferior to everyone else here?

I guess it does.

Small companies/individuals that sell pedals are called "boutique".  "Bootweeker" is aimed at people who don't know enough to design a new pedal, so they "tweak" and sell other people's designs.

[black mariah]

Small companies/individuals that sell pedals are called "boutique".  "Bootweeker" is aimed at people who don't know enough to design a new pedal, so they "tweak" and sell other people's designs.

I know what it means. If you'll read what's been posted you'll realize that numerous people are using some very large brushes for the canvas they're painting on.

How many Fuzz Face variants are listed in the gallery and schematics sections?
How many Tube Screamers?
How many Rats?
How many Red Llamas?

How many variants of those designs have been sold by both small and large builders all over the world?

Here's my suggestion to anyone and everyone that's bitching... stop posting and go away. This way all your precious designs nobody else (but RG  ) has thought of are safely tucked away from the mean people that want to offset the cost of their hobby, or potentially make enough to buy a new guitar or something. In other words, if you don't want your pot of gold stolen keep the damn thing in the house and not in the town square. There are no protections afforded to circuits other than the odd patent. PCB layouts are another story. Either DEAL WITH IT or take your toys and go home.

That's just my suggestion. Then again, I'm just some dude.

[tcobretti]

So your suggestion is that the people who actually contribute here should stop posting and go away so those of us who contribute very little can inherit the board?  What good will the board be when most of the knowledgeable people are gone?

[black mariah]

So your suggestion is that the people who actually contribute here should stop posting and go away so those of us who contribute very little can inherit the board?  What good will the board be when most of the knowledgeable people are gone?

No. My suggestion is that anyone who puts a design out in public for anyone to see then complains when someone uses it for reasons they didn't originally intend probably shouldn't be posting designs in public. No more. No less.

That's one thing about the free exchange of information... if the information exchange is truly free then anyone can us it for any reason.

If you don't want that, then perhaps swapping emails is a better idea. Don't want Timmy from Podunk, IA building a few pedals to sell to the local punters, now do we?

[choklitlove]

everyone's aware that posting original designs here is dangerous.  however, it's the most fun and most interesting thing about this board, if you ask me.  i think everyone just wants to find a way that would make doing that safer.  of course, there will never be a way to make that totally safe.  there just has to be a safer way than our current system.



aron-  is there a way to set security levels within threads?  i am trying to think of a way to conserve all of the great info that is deep within these forums.  but maybe the thread's author could set a level to keep non-members from viewing the text and/or files within.  i know a big part of the problem is with members, but non-members could be just as dangerous.  how do we know?

i'm also trying to conserve our non-elitist attitudes (most of ours, anyway).  this makes these problems very hard to deal with.  like that suggestion i made to you in the PM: theoretically, it could make a difference.  however, it would give others a sense that we were elitists, therefor assholes.  i think that could potentially hurt the popularity of this community.  actually, that might not be such a bad thing...

[gez]

Unfortunately I'm not sure there's a solution to all this.  Too many people: can't expect nearly 6000 people to all agree and have one agenda, no matter how hard you enforce it.

Although it might be impractical to fully do what Mark was suggesting, to politely remind people from time to time that replies should be courteous is a good idea.  Not sure how that would be implemented in practice, but perhaps a reply with a link to a sticky which says 'be nice blah blah' would be enough to pull some people up when they start loosing the plot?

Re levels of access etc.  I used to frequent another electronic forum where they had this implemented.  You basically had to achieve a certain number of posts before you were allowed to access/download info from their site.  You couldn't even see links to downloads until you'd done this.  Moderators were very harsh on people who tried to bump up their number of posts and even a simple 'thanks, great info' was frowned upon.  End result was a really dry, humourless environment that had all the ambiance of a %^&*tail evening hosted by Vulcans.  I sincerely hope steps (even if only moderate) aren't taken to do this here: I'd hate to think what cheese nibbles that species eat...

[black mariah]

I'm through with this thread. All I'm going to do is keep repeating myself.

The fact is there is nothing that can be done, and nothing should be done because if someone leaves a forum because of one asshole... chances are they were going to find SOME reason to leave anyway.

I'll leave it at that.

[MartyMart]

Re levels of access etc.  I used to frequent another electronic forum where they had this implemented.  You basically had to achieve a certain number of posts before you were allowed to access/download info from their site.  You couldn't even see links to downloads until you'd done this.  Moderators were very harsh on people who tried to bump up their number of posts and even a simple 'thanks, great info' was frowned upon.  End result was a really dry, humourless environment that had all the ambiance of a %^&*tail evening hosted by Vulcans.  I sincerely hope steps (even if only moderate) aren't taken to do this here: I'd hate to think what cheese nibbles that species eat...

Gez, I think I know one or two that are still like that !!
Absolutely anything even slightly OT is frowned upon, so you end up just not going there at all.

What I don't think is a problem, is having to "sign in" before seeing anything - this is the case on
a number of other DIY amp/studio tech sites and seems VERY reasonable to me.
Why should "just anyone" be able to access all the layouts and schems and be anonymous ??
That gets my vote absolutely.

I've posted a number of designs and layouts, which I'm quite happy for anyone to build, I have no
real attachment to any of those, some others WONT be posted though.
The recent Tornado thread with input from several members is what this place is all about, a DIY
circuit with lots of input and discussion, ending up with a BETTER circuit and some good things
learned along with that

Bottom line :  Post it and be prepared to possibly lose it !!
Hey Ho !
Marty.

[markm]

I'm through with this thread. All I'm going to do is keep repeating myself.

The fact is there is nothing that can be done, and nothing should be done because if someone leaves a forum because of one asshole... chances are they were going to find SOME reason to leave anyway.

I'll leave it at that.

Please do, we get the point.
I agree that there is no real solution to the "problems" here.
There certainly are measures that can be taken to help contain some of the issues brought up but, there doesn't seem to be one definitive answer.
With that said, I doubt highly that any of the members that have pulled out of here recently were "Looking" for a reason to leave and finally settled on the New-'tiquers being their way outta here. 
I think we also have a maturity-level issue on the BB as well.
Lots of the younger crowd seem to get hotter much quicker than the "regulars" do when sticky topics arise.

[choklitlove]

+1 on the member's only idea on certain things. 

what do you guys think about this: a "developer's forum" where you can feel a little safer posting things you're working on.  this sort of goes along the same lines as what i PM'd aron.  to gain access, you have to have a certain # of posts and you have to be a member for so long.  that would probably take care of the majority of people that would take things.  i don't really know.  pros?  cons?

[propadog]

Please don't abuse the good natured help of others only to try and profit from their help. You guys know if you are making profit from the good natured help of others. Think about it.

Aron, I have never had the pleasure of good-natured help from others here. As someone is is frequently frustrated by the pig-headed attitudes of the clique around here who refuse to answer a question for my HOBBY. and seeing someone else being told that becasue the person sending the reply had worked for 25 years to get that information, he wasn't going to answer, you need to look at the other side too.

I just got another PM from someone that is "disgusted" and leaving. OK, fair enough but my email is listed, PM is available; it would have been great to have voiced concerns TO ME before blowing up at me and leaving.
Wow, what a nice thing to do - be continually upset over time, decide it's time to leave and leave me a crappy letter only to not leave any helpful suggestions.

To be helpful, one must be helped, no? And this place is disgusting in its attitudes.

You want a meaningful suggestion?

What needs to be reinforced is that this is a community of people with a common interest. Some people make a living out of it. Some, like me, look at it because they know a little bit about electronics (I've done a little bit of work on radar and wide-area communication- look up Jindalee and JORN- and have postgrad qualifications. I might know one or two things about, oh, things.) I combine that with a love of music, and I want to see what is happening inside because I'm a compulsive explorer/tinkerer. But it is a hobby for me.

But while it is a hobby for me, I will NOT tolerate some egotistical knob treating me like an idiot. And if there are going to be moderators, they also need to tell the clique, because that is what they are, to pull their heads in or be helpful. Especially when the answer they supply has nothing to do with the question. When they do get around to answering.

I do not contribute any more, because I am sick of the double standards.

Everyone worships RG and I get told to contact him- it's a pity he doesn't answer, isn't it. So where does that leave me? With a problem and not even a hint which way to go. I don't know how many times I have PMd him about that frigging PCB design book on his website- you know, the one he sells- and gotten no answer.

Does anyone have it so I can make a copy of it? (Wonder if I will get an answer now.)

I don't want someone to design the frigging circuit to me. I want someone to say this happens because... and then that's it. I don't need to be told twice. The search engine on this site sux, and half the links are dead anyway. (nothing personal Aron, that's just decay.)

Now, I'm almost finished a new pedal I'm calling the "Blah"- it's beyond a wah, because that's the sound I've been looking for since my uni days. But why should I release it here when no one has even been respectful to me, let alone helped?

Suggestion- why aren't there more papers like the comparison of wah components? That is a perfect document to have up here! I don't want a "technology of the on off switch". It would be great to have a "standard" schem for (dare I say it) a tube screamer that says if you change this, that happens... Just like the wah bits doc.

I do not need to see yet another fuzz face. I do not need to see yet another tube screamer. There are already 4,345,671 schem and counting. I need a place that I can go to for a quick understanding of why or how to make x happen, so I can change it.

Honestly, to an outsider- my wife- this place looks like a bunch of people trying to show how much they know by telling half of the story. Which means either the other half is a secret, or they don't know it. So we're all wasting our time.

Look, fine, leave my crappy letters, but do me a favor, before you leave, if you've got any solutions then let me have them. Otherwise it's just not going to help any.

Which is about as much help as most get around here.

Welcome to the world as lived by the dreaded newbie. You get crap, not help.

I've been thinking about this problem of people making money off of others. Basically taking ideas and selling them... Of course it's wrong - BUT, I don't think this forum is the place to put people on trial. If you think otherwise, let me know.

The answer is the opposite of what you are saying- more open communication.
Who here can say that they have designed a pedal from scratch with no influence whatsoever from another- no BMP tone stack; no EH buffer (or whoever it was...) No more tube screamers or fuzz faces (please!). Then who are the people who accuse Behringer of copying pedals...

I wonder how the DMCA would work in here (or whatever it's called...) There are layouts from magazines that are definitely copyrighted.