Making Boss/Ibanez/Dano Pedals ALWAYS ON

[sjaltenb]

Hey ya'll.

I have built some pedals and true bypass switch units but its all new to me so bear with me...Im going to be building a Cornish board soon like some other people on this forum have done. Most of the pedals are already true bypass using 3PDT switching so they will all be very easy.

But I will also be using 3 (yes 3) Dano EQ units, A Boss CE2, CS2 and a Ibanez DE7 (maybe). So I have been doing a lot of research and I think I figured out the Dano unit already...I simply have to add a jumper on the switch board...but im thinking i can just connect the wires, right?

As far as the boss units, i pulled the board out of my old CE2 and i see that the footswitch is connected using 2 wires that connect to the board. Can these simply be connected (jumped) to leave have the effect on at all times??

As far as the signal flow for this project, am I wrong to think i can simply use the send/returns on 3PDT to connect to the input/outputs on the circuit board of the pedal i wish to bypass?

Thanks for the help guys I really want to make this thing work and do it right!!

[Barcode80]

you can't rig either setup to always on by connecting the switch wires AFAIK. the switch connects these, true, but it is the connect-then-disconnect action in the switch which actually flips the mode of the fets. you have to do some parts removal/bypassing, and a quick search here should yield the process.

just connecting switch wires on any commercial pedal, boss, danelectro, or otherwise that is not already true bypass will NOT work as far as I know.

[sjaltenb]

hey. Well interestingly enough, it does work on the dano pedal, i just tried it. but you are 100% correct, it did not work on the Boss pedal...i got anxious....

Is there any other way around this? I knwo the FET swithcing is pretty complicated. Is there a way to connect directly to the board where the signal enters and exits the circuit? I will be using the 3PDT so the LED does not matter...

looks like this is going to get complicated

[Barcode80]

it's really not that bad. if i recall (again search function is your friend), you simply have to jumper a couple things to trick the circuit into always on, then use the ins and outs wired to the jacks as effect in/out. i would suggest, however, if you don't want to mess with it, just get a momentary spst footswitch (two contacts) and wire it just like the cheaper plastic momentary in the pedal. then you have a switch which works exactly like the old one but looks like all the the true bypass switches.

don't let people fool you, the bypass switching on boss and danelectro is REALLY good, and a true bypass mod is probably a little overkill for them. in fact, a couple of 1 or 2 part mods will make them sound (IMHO) identical to tru bypass. ibanez has some opportunities with their switching, but dano and boss are top notch.

if the dano one works how you wired it, cool, but it seems a tad unnecessary for the boss.

[sjaltenb]

Ok well for the boss/ibanez can i do this...? I may just be repeating what you say but i want to be sure

Say Im going from a TB 3PDT Compressor...to a Boss CE2...to a TB 3PDT Muff    ( i know that wouldnt really happen just go with it)

I could do the following:

Input signal-->in on the first 3pdt (loop send/return to the circuit board of the compressor)--out on the 3pdt -->input on the boss board (use a SPDT switch to signal it on off and also give some "bufferage" in there somewhere)...wire the original LED that is on the boss circuit board to wherever i want it on my unit....use the output on the boss board to go to the input on the next 3pdt and just keep on going from there

Sorry for the bad wording. This will be MUCH easier tho if it works!!!! I know the units are fine without TB, i just want everything to have the same style switches

[jonathan perez]

Sorry for the retarted wording...

wrong word, buddy. i suggest you refrain from using such words in such manners. thank you.

[sjaltenb]

Sorry for the retarted wording...

wrong word, buddy. i suggest you refrain from using such words in such manners. thank you.

sorry, thank you for noting that. no harm intended

[Mark Hammer]

As always, the question needs to be asked.  There are good reasons for wanting to rehouse pedals whose low price is contingent on coming in cheap, awkward-shaped plastic housings.  There is good reason for wanting to group-rehouse pedals that come in decent chassis too, if only for the convenience of having one box with ergonomically laid-out switches, a decent power-supply that doesn't involve cables running all over, and a handle that lets you pick it up.

But why the obsession with converting pedals to true bypass?  The pedals already come with circuitry for status LED indication.  With a power supply for the whole pedalboard, there is no real need to have individual true-bypass in case the pedal battery fails.  Moreover, while you might bypass the switching FETs with wire jumpers, all the input and output buffer circuitry needed to make the FET switching workable (and which is often blamed for "tone-sucking" or unneeded noise contributions) is still there doing what it does unless you deliberately eliminate or sidestep it.  In short, you will have put in a lot of time and effort and money for something which didn't need to be done, and which offers very little benefit.

Now, if you wanted to run wires from the individual boards to parallel heavy-duty momentary switches that were laid out in a manner that let you be nimble and strategic in switching your effects, I would say "Bravo!" and be first in line to do so (and parallel secondary switches are an absolute breeze to install, as well as very amenable to remote switching by your soundman).  If you wanted to installed master TB switches to facilitate switching of pedal groupings, you'd receive the same accolades from me.  If you said (as some have) "I need and prefer the physical/tactile feedback of the heavy 'click'", I could vote for that too.  And certainly, if you were starting from scratch, and installing a switch arrangement for homebrew pedals that came with no electronic switching of their own, a "Cornish-style" arrangement of doughnut-surrounded stompswitches is entirely apprpriate and simple to do.  However, I see no real advantage to be gained by converting all your pedals to TB, and certainly some things to be lost.

[sjaltenb]

As always, the question needs to be asked.  There are good reasons for wanting to rehouse pedals whose low price is contingent on coming in cheap, awkward-shaped plastic housings.  There is good reason for wanting to group-rehouse pedals that come in decent chassis too, if only for the convenience of having one box with ergonomically laid-out switches, a decent power-supply that doesn't involve cables running all over, and a handle that lets you pick it up.

But why the obsession with converting pedals to true bypass?  The pedals already come with circuitry for status LED indication.  With a power supply for the whole pedalboard, there is no real need to have individual true-bypass in case the pedal battery fails.  Moreover, while you might bypass the switching FETs with wire jumpers, all the input and output buffer circuitry needed to make the FET switching workable (and which is often blamed for "tone-sucking" or unneeded noise contributions) is still there doing what it does unless you deliberately eliminate or sidestep it.  In short, you will have put in a lot of time and effort and money for something which didn't need to be done, and which offers very little benefit.

Now, if you wanted to run wires from the individual boards to parallel heavy-duty momentary switches that were laid out in a manner that let you be nimble and strategic in switching your effects, I would say "Bravo!" and be first in line to do so (and parallel secondary switches are an absolute breeze to install, as well as very amenable to remote switching by your soundman).  If you wanted to installed master TB switches to facilitate switching of pedal groupings, you'd receive the same accolades from me.  If you said (as some have) "I need and prefer the physical/tactile feedback of the heavy 'click'", I could vote for that too.  And certainly, if you were starting from scratch, and installing a switch arrangement for homebrew pedals that came with no electronic switching of their own, a "Cornish-style" arrangement of doughnut-surrounded stompswitches is entirely apprpriate and simple to do.  However, I see no real advantage to be gained by converting all your pedals to TB, and certainly some things to be lost.

thanks for your reply, and I COMPLETELY agree with you. I guess for some reason i had never realised that i could simply use a heavy duty  footswitch located where i want in a cornish style arrangement wihtout having to bypass the whole system etc etc.

Once i realised (duh!- thank you Barcode) that i could simply use an SPST heavy duty footswitch i realised that this is 100 the way to go with both the Dano and the Boss pedals! The only question I have is can i simply put the LED light wherever I want but run it off the original circuit board..? I assume I need to be careful what kind of LED i use. I would like to be able to use the bright red/blue ones in a perfect world.
Thanks!

[Mark Hammer]

The feasibility of simply relocating the physical momentary switch that actuates the electronic switching circuitry is one of those things that just stares people in the face and they miss it almost every doggone time.  No need to apologize or feel embarrassed.  You join a VERY long lineup of folks.

Ultimately both the status LED and the momentary footswitch are soldered to two pads each and there is precious little reason on earth why you could not a) relocate them and/or b) replace them with a preferred component.

I will draw your attention to two key areas, though.

1) Some pedals simply connect the momentary switch to ground in order to actuate whatever flip-flop circuit they use, but others seem to connect the momentary to V+.  You will be tempted to run one side of all the footswitches to a single common line, if only to keep wiring neat and simple.  That's fine.  Just make sure that if you are mixing systems that the "commons" for each type are kept separate.

2) The companies that built the pedals selected the specific value of the current limiting resistor in series with the status LED so as to provide enough visibility (without burnout) for that LED in that chassis.  Changing LEDs, and even just changing where you put them, will have an impact on visibility.  You will need to be able to identify where the current limiting resistor is so that you can alter its value to be appropriate for the LED/location selected on your Cornish-style board.  On the other hand, there is much choice available these days in super-bright LEDs of different colours that perhaps you can just buy a fistful of 25k trimpots when you buy your LEDs, and stick the trimpot in series with the current-limiting resistor already there.  Chances are darn good that you would need to increase the current-limiting resistance anyways, and 25k should cover just about anything out there.  If you have a mix of colours, you'll be able to adjust them for roughly equal visibility or even some sort of strategic arrangement (e.g., more brightness for those on the periphery).

I mentioned that your pedalboard could be remotely switched by someone else, and I meant it.  The switching circuitry on the pedal itself doesn't particularly care HOW that momentary connection to ground is made.  For all it cares, there could be 500 momentary SPST switches all paralleled and connected to the same two points on the board.  Press any single one of those switches and the flip goes flop.  Press any single one of those switches (same or different) again and the flop goes flip.  Functional identical.

What this means is that you can route the same two wires that connect your heavy-duty momentary switches to some sort of "port" connector at the side or rear skirt, and a snake-type cable could be run to the sound desk for someone else to do the switching for you on cue.  And just like our 500-swith scenario, the pedalboard would not care if it was you stepping on a switch on the physical pedalboard itself or someone else hitting a soft-touch pushbutton on a color-coded/labelled keypad 100ft away.  Their both just temporary ground-out connections.  Cool huh?

[joegagan]

with all respect to Mark,
I have found that stacking two or more boss, digitech or ibanez pedals begins to do wierd things to the tone when compared to a true bypass.
usually a slightly compressed 'dulling', but other times i get a treble boost that is not welcome in my rig.
the touch responsiveness of what reaches my amp also suffers.
I believe that buffer after buffer after buffer after buffer is just too much.

just a guess, but i would think that the buffers in the dano peds are even less ' quality ' than the ibz or boss

so if i were building a cornish style board, i would have one good adjustable boost somewhere in the chain
(probably after the fuzzes and Ge style boosts but before the modualtion stuff) and have everything else true bypassed

i am a little lazy, when i true bypass a commercial style buffered pedal i just leave the whole circuit stock ( tap the true bypass into the ins and outs) and flip  the stock switch every time I plug in.

[Mark Hammer]

I actually agree with you to some extent, but feel it is a question of "critical mass" and tipping points. 

Commercial pedals are first conceptualized as standalones to be purchased by someone who owns no other pedals.  The manufacturer can't neessarily rely on the purchaser owning another pedal whose buffer will do all the heavy lifting, so they ALL have the buffering.  The broader question is how many such always-on input buffer stages does it take to result in an easily discriminable loss of bandwidth/tone, or an easily discriminable increment in noise.  I'm purely guessing here, but I'm gonna say around 6 or more.  Of course the acceptability will depend on what pedals are in the chain.  A super high-gain pedal some 5 or 6 pedals along the signal path will apply that gain to all the hiss accumulated along the way.  When it's amplified by x500, a drop of 1.5db in residual hiss from all preceding pedals can be meaningful.

For that reason, I think that there is every good reason to want to have some sort of group bypassing via a mechanical switch for clusters of pedals, if only as a means of simply subtracting the impact of 3 or 4 pedals' worth of hiss or bandwidth alteration.  I should note that this need not require ANY modification to the pedals themselves.  All it requires is that any sort of pedalboard like sjaltenb is considering have a sort of built-in loop selector or two.  Even disregarding any concerns about potential tone-sucking or noise, its damn convenient to be able to just make 3 or 4 pedals "go away" by means of one stepping motion.

In the grand scheme of things, though, even with fanatical devotion to true bypass switching, if you have a half dozen pedals on in a row, and at least 2 or 3 of them are going to be on at any point in time, chances are pretty damn good you're going to want some sort of double or single-ended noise control solution.  Not because of the buffers, but because of what's between them.  And that, my friend, is completely orthogonal to whether one is using FET, CMOS, relay, or mechanical bypass.

Is there a difference in input buffer "quality" between $15 and $150 pedals?  I honestly doubt it, Joe.  The input buffers are SO similar across so many manufacturers and pedals, and I don't think I've ever seen any outside of the high-end boutique crowd that use things like 1% metal film resistors.  It's pretty much the same 5% resistors, 2SC1815 or 2240 trannies, etc, etc.  In other words, any between-manufacturer differences in noise are unlikely to come from the buffer design itself.  Are SMD pedals "noisier" than through-hole pedals?  I have no idea and no basis for judgment.  Keep in mind that the cheapest Dano and Behringer pedals do not earn their low price through a noticeably lower parts countor lower quality parts, but rather through cheap labour, more efficient high-volume production processes, and injection-moulded plastic chassis.  No reason whatsoever to assume that a 5-component input buffer will be any different at all.

[joegagan]

good point on the 'grouping' switch like you said Mark.

it seems like one sc1815 would be the same as another, but different sources are going to have different quality. a lot of the components in Chinese electronics looked cheap on the outside, stands to reason the same corner cutting went on internally.

of course Chinese quality is changing very rapidly, there is no hard and fast rule any more with regards to quality.

[Barcode80]

don't forget that the stomp you replace the the boss switch with has to be MOMENTARY (i believe). the switching is triggered by the switch touching ground (or voltage, depending on the circuit) and then releasing. both must be present, in my understanding, for it to work, so you have to have a momentary switch.

[Mark Hammer]

don't forget that the stomp you replace the the boss switch with has to be MOMENTARY (i believe). the switching is triggered by the switch touching ground (or voltage, depending on the circuit) and then releasing. both must be present, in my understanding, for it to work, so you have to have a momentary switch.

Absolutely 100% keeeeeeee-wrecked.  I have mentioned it many times before, but I believe in it so strongly that I will bludgeon you with it yet one more time :  One of the advantages of SPST momentary switches is that they can be physically "grouped" near each other in ways that give you the option to step on 2 (or even 3) of them at once, or individually.  For instance, the switches for different-flavoured overdrives could be placed "side-by-each" as we like to say here.  Step on the two switches at once and you essentially swap overdrives in one physical motion.  Alternatively, have them both set for off, and one motion turns them both on at once.  Users choice.  Clearly some planning of "workable distances" has to be undertaken so that their physical spacing rules out neither two at once OR one at a time.  On the other hand, like I noted in my previous post, there is no reason why one could not have several sets of electronically redundant switches on the same control panel.  So imagine switches for pedals A through H, all in a row, with 6 inches between them.  Of to one side are several pairs of paralleled switches for several combinations that you might wish to switch in pairs, whether in both on/off or one-or-the-other fashion.  That starts to be a pretty big control surface, though for those who can manage/afford the space VERY convenient.

[sjaltenb]

Wow thanks for all the responses guys. Looks like I have some planning/testing ahead of me. I have quite a board layed out on paper, hopefully I can pull it off!! My signal chain shall look something like this (keep in mind...gilmour nut here)

2 inputs with select
S/R for Whammy
BYOC Fuzz
GGG Buffer
BYOC DynaComp
Boss CS2
Fulltone FullDrive II- Usually set to CompCut mode for a clean boost into muff
BYOC Beaver with Dano EQ#1 in the loop to boost mids and have overall control of the tone
Fulltone FullDrive II Clone (made from BYOC 808-- If it works well im gonna jsut sell the first one and build another!)
S/R For Wah w/ Reverse switch for "Echoes"
Dano EQ2
Dano EQ3  These two will be controlled with one footswitch but will have individual on/offs most likely...Eqs are hard to change while playin
S/R to Amp effects loop
Boss CE2
Electric Mistress with Boost circuit to fix volume drop
Dano Chicken Salad Vibe clone- it actually sounds pretty damn good
BYOC Trem
S/R for Volume Pedal
Boss DD20 #1
Boss DD20 #2
Send to Amp

Plus i have all kinds of other tricks up my sleave. A wiring nightmare maybe, but a fun project and sweet board, yes!

OH YES

[chris scott]

The feasibility of simply relocating the physical momentary switch that actuates the electronic switching circuitry is one of those things that just stares people in the face and they miss it almost every doggone time.  No need to apologize or feel embarrassed.  You join a VERY long lineup of folks.

Ultimately both the status LED and the momentary footswitch are soldered to two pads each and there is precious little reason on earth why you could not a) relocate them and/or b) replace them with a preferred component.

I will draw your attention to two key areas, though.

1) Some pedals simply connect the momentary switch to ground in order to actuate whatever flip-flop circuit they use, but others seem to connect the momentary to V+.  You will be tempted to run one side of all the footswitches to a single common line, if only to keep wiring neat and simple.  That's fine.  Just make sure that if you are mixing systems that the "commons" for each type are kept separate.

2) The companies that built the pedals selected the specific value of the current limiting resistor in series with the status LED so as to provide enough visibility (without burnout) for that LED in that chassis.  Changing LEDs, and even just changing where you put them, will have an impact on visibility.  You will need to be able to identify where the current limiting resistor is so that you can alter its value to be appropriate for the LED/location selected on your Cornish-style board.  On the other hand, there is much choice available these days in super-bright LEDs of different colours that perhaps you can just buy a fistful of 25k trimpots when you buy your LEDs, and stick the trimpot in series with the current-limiting resistor already there.  Chances are darn good that you would need to increase the current-limiting resistance anyways, and 25k should cover just about anything out there.  If you have a mix of colours, you'll be able to adjust them for roughly equal visibility or even some sort of strategic arrangement (e.g., more brightness for those on the periphery).

I mentioned that your pedalboard could be remotely switched by someone else, and I meant it.  The switching circuitry on the pedal itself doesn't particularly care HOW that momentary connection to ground is made.  For all it cares, there could be 500 momentary SPST switches all paralleled and connected to the same two points on the board.  Press any single one of those switches and the flip goes flop.  Press any single one of those switches (same or different) again and the flop goes flip.  Functional identical.

What this means is that you can route the same two wires that connect your heavy-duty momentary switches to some sort of "port" connector at the side or rear skirt, and a snake-type cable could be run to the sound desk for someone else to do the switching for you on cue.  And just like our 500-swith scenario, the pedalboard would not care if it was you stepping on a switch on the physical pedalboard itself or someone else hitting a soft-touch pushbutton on a color-coded/labelled keypad 100ft away.  Their both just temporary ground-out connections.  Cool huh?

Hey Mark,

Interesting thread here. I've been trying to make a  re-boxed TS-5 (bargain TS-8) operate with a heavy-duty momentary contact switch (stolen from a Rivera amp switch pad) and it just doesn't want to work. I take the two wires to the switch and touch them together positively, on. Again, off. Yet when I connect the switch into the circuit, I need to smack that switch sometimes 10 times before it turns on, yet once is always enough to turn it off. I suspect the contacts inside the switch have too much resistance, but this is only a theory. I started this project only to bomb-proof an otherwise fine pedal- as I am a working player, I needed to lose the cheesy inputs, and putting everything in a Hammond box enabled me to do this- I had no intention of any true-bypass stuff. But this switching deal is really starting to fry my patience, as I can find NOTHING on the net that shows me how to solve this problem. Any ideas/tip will be GREATLY appreciated.
Regards, Chris     

[axg20202]

Sounds to me much more likely that the switch is faulty. Obvious I know, but have you tried another momentary foot switch? You could always test the switch using a DMM to confirm that it is actually throwing when pressed.

EDIT: sorry, I just noticed that you said it goes off with a single press. Strange. Still, I'd try another switch in there.

[Mark Hammer]

My vote is with AXG.  It's the switch.

Stomp-style "heavy duty" switches often have a rocking "see-saw" style contact inside them.  I don't know what type of switch you used but if it is anything like a DPDT-style stompswitch, that's what it uses.  This rocker contact is essentially free-floating and not physically secured to anything.  During manufacture, it would seem like many of them employ a tiny dab of grease to momentarily secure the rocker contact in position while the rest of the switch is assembled.  If you take one of these switches apart by prying the tabs up, the rocker contact will often fall out if you shake the switch.  The grease is there to hold it like that goop that some older folks have to put on their false teeth to keep them in place; a kind of place-holder.  It is NOT necessary for the switch to function, merely helpful in allowing the manufacturer to assemble them quickly.

The grease itself is not a problem, and allows the manufacturer to assemble more switches per hour and keep production costs down.  The problem is when people start installing the switches. If the solder joint is fashioned quickly, the grease stays in place.  If the soldering iron sits too long on the solder tab and heat flows up the tab to the rocker contact, the grease starts to soften, liquify, and flow over the entire contact like a coating, instead of sitting only at the pivot point where it is supposed to be.

As you can imagine, this is a source of tremendous exasperation for folks like yourself, because as far as they know the switch was good, tested good, and then after installation a simple thing that ought to have worked doesn't work.   It also seems to be the source of a great many folk-legends about manufacturers whose switches fail at rates that would normally result in cancellation of commercial orders and the bankruptcy of the company....the very company that still ships out sizeable commercial orders to satisfied customers who report only sporadic difficulties.

Sadly, many builders here, and on other forums, are victims of something they can't see, hence can't adjust their behaviour/technique in anticipation of.  If the housing was clear plastic, you'd see the grease starting to liquify and you'd remove the heat and cool the tab down quickly.  If you can't see it, you can't adjust for it.  Happily, if the switch has bendable tabs holding the top and bottom halves together, you can gently lift the tabs, get the rocker contact out, clean the grease coating off, re-seat the contact and crimp the tabs back together to reassemble the switch.  I've done this a few times...which is how I learned about the grease thing. 

This may or may not be the source of your current problem, and if it is it may not necessarily be as remediable as it is with the more common breeds of DPDT and 3PDT switches.  Here's hoping that it IS the source of your difficulty and IS as remediable as described.

[chris scott]

My vote is with AXG.  It's the switch.

Stomp-style "heavy duty" switches often have a rocking "see-saw" style contact inside them.  I don't know what type of switch you used but if it is anything like a DPDT-style stompswitch, that's what it uses.  This rocker contact is essentially free-floating and not physically secured to anything.  During manufacture, it would seem like many of them employ a tiny dab of grease to momentarily secure the rocker contact in position while the rest of the switch is assembled.  If you take one of these switches apart by prying the tabs up, the rocker contact will often fall out if you shake the switch.  The grease is there to hold it like that goop that some older folks have to put on their false teeth to keep them in place; a kind of place-holder.  It is NOT necessary for the switch to function, merely helpful in allowing the manufacturer to assemble them quickly.

The grease itself is not a problem, and allows the manufacturer to assemble more switches per hour and keep production costs down.  The problem is when people start installing the switches. If the solder joint is fashioned quickly, the grease stays in place.  If the soldering iron sits too long on the solder tab and heat flows up the tab to the rocker contact, the grease starts to soften, liquify, and flow over the entire contact like a coating, instead of sitting only at the pivot point where it is supposed to be.

As you can imagine, this is a source of tremendous exasperation for folks like yourself, because as far as they know the switch was good, tested good, and then after installation a simple thing that ought to have worked doesn't work.   It also seems to be the source of a great many folk-legends about manufacturers whose switches fail at rates that would normally result in cancellation of commercial orders and the bankruptcy of the company....the very company that still ships out sizeable commercial orders to satisfied customers who report only sporadic difficulties.

Sadly, many builders here, and on other forums, are victims of something they can't see, hence can't adjust their behaviour/technique in anticipation of.  If the housing was clear plastic, you'd see the grease starting to liquify and you'd remove the heat and cool the tab down quickly.  If you can't see it, you can't adjust for it.  Happily, if the switch has bendable tabs holding the top and bottom halves together, you can gently lift the tabs, get the rocker contact out, clean the grease coating off, re-seat the contact and crimp the tabs back together to reassemble the switch.  I've done this a few times...which is how I learned about the grease thing. 

This may or may not be the source of your current problem, and if it is it may not necessarily be as remediable as it is with the more common breeds of DPDT and 3PDT switches.  Here's hoping that it IS the source of your difficulty and IS as remediable as described.

Mark-

   Thanks for your time to lay that all out. I was able to dis-assemble the switch by simply driving out the roll pin that holds the switch activating mech. in the switch barrel, which in turn allowed me to flood the whole shebang w/ copious amounts of de-ox-it.

No change- should I be suprised?

Nah- it's magic, remember.  ...I guess I'm gonna have to include a Maxon 808 in my next AES order......

Thanks again man,
Chris