Studio tape effects unit

[rockgardenlove]

All my favorite old tracks feature reverse tape bits, speed shifts, etc.  It's way impractical to have a home studio using tape, so of course my setup is digital.  I can't get all the tape sounds though, so I'm looking for an old school tape player that I can modify to have speed changes, and reverse playback.

So I'm trying to figure out what sort of tape player I need.  Of course I want something with thru-hole construction, so I can tweak it.  I also want to maintain good quality.  The only tapes out today are the 1/8" tapes...will these offer high enough sound quality?  I wasn't around in the days of the old school stuff, so I dunno much about this stuff.  What would be best in terms of tape type?  I also want something cost effective...
It'll need to have record and playback heads too...will it be hard to find an old school tape player with these for a reasonable price?

To reverse the playback direction, won't I need a player with both reels powered?

After I get the tape player, it doesn't seem like it should be too hard.  To reverse direction, just flip the power connections to the motor, eh?  Speed change should be accomplish able with a variable voltage to the motor with a voltage divider in my mind...should this work?

Thanks very much!  I know this is moving a bit beyond the usual subjects in this forum, but I don't know who else to go to.  If you guys know of a better forum for a question like this, I'd love to know.

Thanks!

[rockgardenlove]

No thoughts?

[vanessa]

A 4 track tape recorder (cassette) unit will do it. I used to do it all the time with mine. They sell them new (bare bones) for around $60 at GC. You just flip the cassette over and record (forward) over the backwards music, then flip the tape back over and voila' backwards tape effect. Then just mute the other tracks and record the backwards track to your digital recorder and line it up to the other tracks.

Does it sound good? Beck recorded his first album with a 4 track cassette, does that sound good? If you got a good mic and a good preamp you could record on a stick of gum.

[rockgardenlove]

Hmm, so no DIY required even?  Your reverse technique sounds great...this next part is the catch:
For me, speed change is vital.  I don't think it could be too hard hacking it in, I'm just scared of SMT parts, and I'd need a place to mount a pot or so.

Multiple tracks do sound vital now that you mention it.  Hmmm...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tascam-MFP01-4Track-Portastudio?sku=240851
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fostex-X12-4Track-Cassette-Recorder?sku=240282
You were talking about something along these lines, right?

[reverberation66]

      if you use a 4 track with one of those pitch adjust wheels you can mess with that during playback for speed change effects. 

[Mark Hammer]

Ultimately, if you want to do backwards tape sounds you need a 4-track machine of some type with record/playback individually selectable (or functionally close enough to that) so that a specific track recorded in one direction can be played back on a different track.  For example, if forward lets you record tracks 1 and 3, when you flip the tape over, they will now be sitting where tracks 2 and 4 are read from the tape head.  This will be true of both a cassette and open-reel type of machine.  If you can play back whichever track you feel like (even if you can only record 2 at a time in any given direction), you'll get your backwards effect.

Waaaaaaaaaay back in the mid 1960's I could get backwards tape effects on my dinky little 3" Japanese reel-to-reel that I got for my bar mitzvah.  Gotta tell you that the Sergeant Pepper album sounds a-ma-zing backwards!   Although those dinky mono machines CAN do backwards tape, unfortunately the requirement for achieving it is that the tape has to be essentially respooled backwards so that the tape head reads the signal through the acetate rather than directly from the oxide side.  This, of course, lends a dulling effect to playback, since the high end doesn't quite make it safely through that 1 mil of plastic to be detected by that teeny coil in the tape head.

There ARE, of course, plenty of pedals available that do backwards tape effects.  The Echo Park (soon to be released in clone form by Behringer for MSLP of $75USD) does a nice job, as does the Boss DD6, and mostly likely the Danelectro pedal.  These are, however, somewhat limited in terms of the length of phrase that can be reversed.  Doing the backwards thing means knowing where the beginning is.  The buffer gets filled up and then everything gets reversed from that identified starting point.  The buffer can't be unlimited, though, and the starting point is always defined largely by the pedal, and less so by the player.  With tape, you can just play, play, play, and decide where the "starting point" is during post-production, including as much continuous signal as you feel like including.

I find it hard to imagine you don't have ANY options for doing this digitally in your current setup, though.  Hell, even the sound recorder that came with Win95 could do reverse.

[vanessa]

Hmm, so no DIY required even?  Your reverse technique sounds great...this next part is the catch:
For me, speed change is vital.  I don't think it could be too hard hacking it in, I'm just scared of SMT parts, and I'd need a place to mount a pot or so.

Multiple tracks do sound vital now that you mention it.  Hmmm...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tascam-MFP01-4Track-Portastudio?sku=240851
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fostex-X12-4Track-Cassette-Recorder?sku=240282
You were talking about something along these lines, right?

Yes. Make sure it has a speed control (mine did). They put them on there to allow you to record at a higher quality or lower (similar to VHS video tape speed selection).

You can also do reverse tape (type) effects on computer DAW recording software. A long time ago I needed a reverse tape sound for a song I was recording and I did not have a tape unit available. At the time the only program that reversed a track to sound like reversed tape was Sonar. The problem was it did not sound convincing. There's a certain amount of tape saturation that goes on when you record to it. It's very evident when you try to do the same with digital tracks. They do not sound the same. The "Are You Experienced" sound just was not to be had with digital. Best to keep a 4 track tape around or even a nice 1/2" 2 track reel to reel (use it for mix downs) for such uses.

[MartyMart]

Best to keep a 4 track tape around or even a nice 1/2" 2 track reel to reel (use it for mix downs) for such uses.

.... have you seen the prices for a decent 2 track R to R these days  !!
Good Grundig/Akai/Studer have gone MAD !

MM.

[vanessa]

Best to keep a 4 track tape around or even a nice 1/2" 2 track reel to reel (use it for mix downs) for such uses.

.... have you seen the prices for a decent 2 track R to R these days  !!
Good Grundig/Akai/Studer have gone MAD !

MM.

I hope you mean incredibly good! Some of those 2 track models went for $10-20,000+ new. These days several hundred used in some cases. And in some cases with very low hours on them to boot!

[Shepherd]

It's way impractical to have a home studio using tape, so of course my setup is digital.  I can't get all the tape sounds though, so I'm looking for an old school tape player that I can modify to have speed changes, and reverse playback.

What recording interface are you using?  I thought most programs offered reverse/pitch effects, with Garage Band being a notable exception. 

Lots of 4 tracks offer a pitch control pot so that would eliminate any need to hack into the motor voltage.  There are so many available used that were never actually used.  I can recommend Tascam.  They are dirt cheap and won't crash when you record thirty minutes of music.

unfortunately the requirement for achieving it is that the tape has to be essentially respooled backwards so that the tape head reads the signal through the acetate rather than directly from the oxide side.  This, of course, lends a dulling effect to playback, since the high end doesn't quite make it safely through that 1 mil of plastic to be detected by that teeny coil in the tape head.

Are you referring to cassette tapes?  Or old school reel tapes?  You can play the good side backwards on old school machines.  It just takes a lot more rewinding and fast forwarding.

[MartyMart]

Are you referring to cassette tapes?  Or old school reel tapes?  You can play the good side backwards on old school machines.  It just takes a lot more rewinding and fast forwarding.

....... or just use a much shorter piece of tape 

I remember in 1983, running an 8 bar drum "loop" around the room from a tape machine to a broom handle
with an empty tape spool nailed to it !!!!  ( I was 21 then ! )

[rockgardenlove]

I went and nabbed a Tascam Porta02 mk. II recorder.  I couldn't find any with a speed control...
I figure it can't be THAT hard to stick in another knob, eh?

What would be the best way to control the tape speed do you guys think?

[rockgardenlove]

Would a simple voltage divider going to the motor work to control the speed?

[vanessa]

Would a simple voltage divider going to the motor work to control the speed?

I think that would do the trick. Or maybe even a variac?

[Elektrojänis]

Most casette tape recorders have a pitch control even though there is no user control for it. It is usually a trimmer somewhere inside it. (Well... In my experince anyway.)

The trimmer could be changed to a regular potentiometer.

There are usually many other trimmers too. The one you are looking for should be near to the point where the wires from the motor are connected to the PCB. One cassette tape machine that I opened recently (to fix it) had the motor control circuit on a separate PCB. After noticing this it was very easy to quess where the motor speed could be tuned... The motor control PCB had only one trimmer.

[vanessa]

True. My 4 track had a main 2 speed switch, but also had an external fine tune speed control. The center was detented, CW sped up, CCW slowed down. You might want to find out the resistance that your trimpot is set to and pick your values accordingly. I believe you could implement a balance pot center detent like my old 4 track (center set to the value of the current trimpot if it has one).

[rockgardenlove]

Trimmer inside?  That'd be VERY handy. 
I think I might just add a toggle switch to disengage the default speed control so that I don't lose the "proper" speed.  When I flip the toggle, I'll route the speed control to a different (external) pot.

Seems like just flat out replacing it would make it hard to return to the stock speed.

[rockgardenlove]

Say, how many semitones of pitch raise/drop would a +/- 12% speed control cover?

[rocket]

1 semitone is 5.9463.... percent
2 semitones is 12.24620.... percent