Its Arrived! Behringer Vibrato clone!

[Geoff Hunter]

Cost £22 from the Guitar shop just off Denmark Street in London (Never remember the names)



Not going to get a chance to do a proper compare for a while, so just tried a quick comparison to the real thing.  I'm going to stick my neck out and say its 90% the same as the VB-2 (depth on the behringer seems *slighty* less, but thats being very picky).

Inside we've got the following chips (sorry no pics)

V3207D and V3202D Marked "coolaudio" (BBD and Clock gen)

a 40?? IC for the switching (cant read)
TL064 and
V13700. also marked with "coolaudio".  The coolaudio website says its a "Transconductance Amplifier", which explains how they got round the problem of trying to get the BA662.

Can't compare the noise with the VB-2, but that was a noisy pedal anyway (thats what the "Bypass" setting is for!)

Its certainly my favourite Behring-clone pedal.  Give it a try if you see it!

[Joe Kramer]

Hey Geoff,

Cool--thanks for posting the pix!  Can't beat that price, especially when you want to save wear/ tear on your vintage VB-2.  How is the build quality on the Behringer?  Wobbly or solid pots, plastic or metal case?

BTW, sorry we didn't make much more progress of the CE-3 vibrato mod.  I realize it's a little late now, but  I did figure a way to get a reasonable sine wave out of that LFO.  It's just a matter of some series resistance from the LFO output, and then some clipping diodes to 1/2 V.  Finding the right resistance and diodes is a matter of tweaking, but about 47K with a pair of small LEDs worked pretty well for me.  FWIW.   But now that you're covered in the vibe department, you probably won't need to bother with it.

Regards,
Joe

[Geoff Hunter]

Hey there Joe!

Build quality is the same as all behringers, plastic and cheap!  The only metal is the baseplate, which does add some weight to it, otherwise they would fly away in a strong breeze 

The chosen pots seem to give good range for rate/depth/rise time, they are not all bunched up in one section.  However putting the knobs on the behringer and boss in the same place and comparing doesn't give you exactly the same output, but I don't think thats really a problem.

Its good that you carried on with the CE-3 modding,  I tend to get worried that i'm going to destroy the pedal if I work too much on it, so I just left at that.  I may go back to it one day (its nice to have both chorus and vibe in one easy package, and easily switchable: CE-3 is perfect for that!)

[SISKO]

Sorry guys for getting into your conversation, but are you saying that you can convert a CE-3 into a vibe ?

[Joe Kramer]

No apology necessary SISKO!  Yes, the CE-3 is a good candidate for a vibe for two reasons: it already has a wet-only output, and it doesn't kill the dry signal when you hit the bypass, as would happen if you did a vibe mod on something like a CE-2.  There's a way around the bypass problem with a CE-2, but it takes more parts.

The problem Geoff and I were working on was, how to get a sine wave from the CE-3 LFO, since the stock triangle wave is too extreme for a nice vibrato sound.  As I said above, I figured out you can get a decent sine by using a series resistance and some clipping diodes, like this:

Code Select Expand


                    47K

LFO output --------N N N---+-------------> to Depth pot
(Pin 7 IC5)                |
                        +--+--+
                        |     |
                        |     |
                        -     v  clipping diodes
                        ^     -
                        |     |
                        +--+--+
                           |
                           V
                         to 1/2V

Sorry for the shaky schemo.  The resistor value and diodes are nominal, so YMMV.  As I said before, a 47K and two LEDs worked for me.  With this mod, the normal chorus sound is still usable, so there's no need to switch the diodes out of the circuit for chorus mode. 

Build quality is the same as all behringers, plastic and cheap!  The only metal is the baseplate, which does add some weight to it, otherwise they would fly away in a strong breeze 

Hey, thanks for the "quality report" Geoff.  I guess one would have to pass on those windy outdoor festival gigs, or maybe get some of that glue for keeping toupees stuck in place! 

EDIT:  BTW, there's no need to attack the PCB to do this mod.  The resistor and the LEDs can be attached to the lugs of the DEPTH pot.  The CW outside lug comes directly from pin 7 of IC5, and the CCW outside lug is 1/2V.  Voila.

Regards,
Joe

[Geoff Hunter]

EDIT:  BTW, there's no need to attack the PCB to do this mod.  The resistor and the LEDs can be attached to the lugs of the DEPTH pot.  The CW outside lug comes directly from pin 7 of IC5, and the CCW outside lug is 1/2V.  Voila.

Regards,
Joe

Ahhh Simplicity at its best!  Thanks for that!

Geoff

[MartyMart]

Seems like it's a good one
Could be re-housed and true bypassed for proper "gigging" use for a few more dollars, still
a LOT cheaper than a VB-2 !!!

[SISKO]

That makes sense. I tough you were talking about moddin the CE-3 into a univibe or something similar (LOL).
Good luck with your modding

[stm]

Sorry to bother, but does anyone have a schem for the CE-3?  I haven't been able to find it in the usual places.

[Stompin Tom]

Hey... Yeah, I had a hard time finding that schemo a while ago when I was trying to mod mine. Send me your email and I can send it to you. Or I could post it here if no one thinks there wouldn't be any problems. I don't want to open the ol' copyright can of worms.

[rocket]

as the ce3 is superceded by the ce5 it should be no problem. note that the copyright is valid only for the "artwork"/piece of paper itself not for the circuit, which needs to patented or otherwise protected.

[StephenGiles]

Marty, have you come accross any Behringer pedals actually stocked in a music shop? I visited Digital Village in South Croydon last week, and despite inclusion on their website, the assistant knew nothing about them!

[Stompin Tom]

Yeah, now that I think about it I won't post it... I have the factory schemo. Just shoot me a PM if you want it.

[petemoore]

  Here's what answers.com has for definition of Vibrato:
  A tremulous or pulsating effect produced in an instrumental or vocal tone by minute and rapid variations in pitch.
  Is that what the VB pedals actually do..vary pitch ?
  Does that sound like a leslie or...

[Geoff Hunter]

......I visited Digital Village in South Croydon last week, and despite inclusion on their website, the assistant knew nothing about them!

I live not far from them, not always the best service in there 

The only place I've seen them is in that shop just off Denmark St, they've got the lot in there.

Is that what the VB pedals actually do..vary pitch ?
  Does that sound like a leslie or...

Thats right, just standard modulated BBD delay to produce slight pitching.  Imagine that you were pushing down on your whammy bar ever so slightly when you are playing, and you'll get the idea.

The only thing that makes these pedals different from just modding a Chorus pedal for wet output is:

1. Sine wave LFO of the delay to give a smooth pitch shift (Chorus pedals tend to use more triangle wave LFO)

2. Ramp up of LFO, and always "on signal"

If you were to make a pedal with an option to flip between a "dry" signal, and a modulated "wet" output, I've noticed a slight stuttering sound during the transition between dry and wet.  This tends to spoil the effect.  (there could be another reason for the stutter though  )

What these pedals do is control the amplitute of the LFO signal so that normally the BBD has a fixed delay, and then slowly (or quickly) allow the LFO to reach its desired shape, and thus create the pitch shift effect.  This makes the transition between dry and wet seamless.

However this means the signal is always running through the BBD even though you have turned the effect "off".  To get round this, Boss (and Behringer) put a physical "bypass" switch to get the BBD out of your signal path when you are not playing.

Not really heard a leslie so can't make a comparison.

[Rodgre]

  Here's what answers.com has for definition of Vibrato:
  A tremulous or pulsating effect produced in an instrumental or vocal tone by minute and rapid variations in pitch.
  Is that what the VB pedals actually do..vary pitch ?
  Does that sound like a leslie or...

Yes, true Vibrato is pitch modulation (as opposed to amplitude modulation of tremolo). Physical Leslie effects combine pitch, amplitude, phase/filtering etc. That's why pedals have had a hard time reproducing the effect.

For those unfamiliar with the Boss VB-2, it was an analog pedal which delayed your signal by about 4ms. There were three modes: latch, unlatch and bypass. In either latch or unlatch, your signal was always being delayed by the 4ms. You would step on the pedal, and depending on how the Rise Time control was set, you would hear an onset of the vibrato from none to full depth.

The Depth and Rate controls are self-explanatory. The Rise Time controlled how long it took for the vibrato effect to come in. Essentially, it was like turning the Depth knob from off to wherever you had it set.

Latch mode would mean that you step on the pedal like any other, and it would swell up the vibrato effect and stay on until you hit the pedal again. In Unlatch mode, the pedal was momentary, and was only on as long as you stepped on it.

Bypass mode took the 4ms delay out of the path and disabled the pedal.

The sound is unlike any other pedal. The vibrato effect is similar to any old chorus or flanger set for a vibrato effect, with the dry signal omitted. So to that end, the sound quality of the vibrato wasn't unlike what you would get with a high-quality rackmount delay (analog or early digital like the awesome Deltalab stuff) set for a vibrato effect, with the signal all wet. The latch/unlatch and rise time are what made the VB-2 special. Nothing, short of the old Roland GR-100 and GR-300 guitar synths did anything like that.

When I got my VB-2 many years ago, I was a little disappointed that it wasn't more extreme, and I found that it was more effective if there was some delay effects added to it, for my tastes. The pedal seems to have been designed to add "finger-style" vibrato when you hold a sustained note. Think BB King or Angus Young. It is as if Boss had designed it for guitarists with poor finger vibrato skills to cheat! Similarly, the Boss Super Feedbacker/Distortion was designed so you could pretend that your guitar was feeding back. I feel that both of these effects missed their potential for coolness by stopping at a safe place. If the VB-2 could have had the rate and depth increased to stupid levels, you could probably get the nastiest, noisiest unique ring modulator sort of effects, or insane and wobbly seasick guitar tones. Same for the Feedbacker. If only it let you tweak the vibrato depth and rate on the feedback oscillator's note, you could get some bizarre synth-like effects.

The Behringer, depending on how adept you are at working with surface-mount components, might be ripe for tweaking for some extreme sounds!

Roger

[Mark Hammer]

  Here's what answers.com has for definition of Vibrato:
  A tremulous or pulsating effect produced in an instrumental or vocal tone by minute and rapid variations in pitch.
  Is that what the VB pedals actually do..vary pitch ?
  Does that sound like a leslie or...

That is exactly what they do.  What they (Behringer and Boss) do beyond that is mimic the way that vibrato gets gradually introduced as a note is held.  The BA662/LM13700 OTA (depending on make) is used to gradually increase the depth of the pitch modulation. much like introducing more finger vibrato to hold a note or having your voice waver the longer you hold the note.  The pitch warble is easy to mimic with ANY phaser or chorus, but the fading in requires significant circuit modification.  That's what makes the VB-2 such a desirable pedal and why Behringer cloned it.

EDIT: Apologies for duplication!

[albatross]

I dont know if its worth starting a new thread, but......

talking of behringher, I have a Ultra flanger, but why do the cheaper flangers have that warble at the end of a cycle, and not like a set sweep, even on the "Jet plane" sweep setting this "warble" still occurs, wish there was a way to get rid of it, I dont think this is present in any of the other flangers like a electric mistress etc.

Though this is great for the money and sounds great on tamer settings.

[MartyMart]

Marty, have you come accross any Behringer pedals actually stocked in a music shop? I visited Digital Village in South Croydon last week, and despite inclusion on their website, the assistant knew nothing about them!

The smaller "mom and pop" stores have them, seems that there's so little profit in them that
the "big boys" just carry them on-line  !!

[Joe Kramer]

Hey STM and others,

Not to hijack this thread any more than I already have (sorry Geoff!), but a while back I couldn't find the CE-3 schemo online either, so I bought a copy from Roland for $10.  I've sent it to a few people on this forum and I'd be happy to send a digital pic via email if anyone wants it.  Feel free to post it if you have the web space.

Regards,
Joe