etching question

[DBDbadreligion]

does it matter if the laser printer is a color printer or not?  can it be a black-and-white printer?

[GREEN FUZ]

No, yes.

[remmelt]

I hear that the trick is to use INKJET paper (as glossy as possible) with a LASER printer. I've never tried laser printer glossy paper for etching. People have good results with shiny magazine paper as well.

It will only work with a photocopier or laser printer, not with inkjet ink.

[GREEN FUZ]

I hear that the trick is to use INKJET paper (as glossy as possible) with a LASER printer.

I read rthis somewhere too. The problem I found was that the copy-centres I brought the layouts to had a problem with putting Inkjet paper in their Laser copiers. Something to do with the thickness of the paper. The machines even had instructions advising against this practice. At one place they tried it and the paper came back crumpled up.

I`ve subsequently tried it with glossy, laserprint paper and it`s worked fine.

[DBDbadreligion]

alright thanks alot.

[zjokka]

I might have spread this rumour. It was my experience that the inkjet paper peeled off by itself after soaking.

FForward the vid to 2min40 or something. The biggest and only disavantage of laser printer paper is that it doesn't peel off, you have to rub it off with your thumb and then still.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=snileUK7PQg

but there are so many different brands of paper that you really cannot tell. I just try to get the most 'papery' backside, that works best, it seemed.

[Plinky]

If you want it done nicely, I would stick with PnP. I'm not doubting the results of printer paper for transferring images to copper board, but I've always found going the cheaper route tends to bite you in the butt. I personally like using the pre-sensitized copper boards. The quality is better than using PnP, but it takes longer to produce a board and the chemical cleanup afterwards is a pain. I haven't tried the printer paper method, but I haven't had a problem with PnP, so I'll stick with that until something better comes along.

[Mark Hammer]

Some folks have been very disappointed with going the paper route, and I suspect it is because there are so many ways to misinterpret what it is you need to use and do.

The glossy color laser paper that you linked to was simply shiny higher quality paper for documents intended to show the boss and high-priced clients at work.  This is different than glossy photo paper.  That paper (photo) has a layer on top of the paper.  This layer is absolutely critical to the process.  Why?  Because it needs to detach from the paper backing.  The toner is bonded to that layer when you print, and when you iron the paper, the toner also bonds to the copper.  Happily for us, the toner bonds VERY strongly to the copper and the copper is bonded strongly to the phenolic/fibreglass.  So, when the paper cools and you peel it off, the toner stays on the copper but it pulls the glossy emulsion off the paper backing (or the blue emulsion if you are using PnP).  The "shiny" good quality paper has no layer so there is nothing to pull off.

I have never actually tried to use a colour laser print to make PCBs, so I can't honestly say if colour toner sticks to the copper as well as black toner.  Certainly it sticks to the glossy side of the paper well enough, but the copper may be another story.

PLEASE NOTE: It has gotten cheaper and cheaper to produce photo paper, so some companies think they are doing us a "service" by putting the glossy emulsion on both sides of the paper backing.  That's great for making copies and not having to worry about whether you put the paper in "right side up".  UNfortunately, if you go to iron one of those sheets onto a copper board, the emulsion on the back side (i.e., where the image ISN'T) will melt and get stuck all over your iron.   So, when you go to buy the glossy paper, make a point of checking to see whether the paper is glossy on ONE side or BOTH.  It MUST be glossy on only one side.

Finally, note as well that "inkjet" and "laser" are simply two qualities of paper.  Inkjet printers have a risk of wet ink "bleeding" outwards such that the image is less sharp.  Inkjet paper is designed to prevent or reduce this, while laser paper doesn't really care since laser toner doesn't bleed.  That's why laser or "photocopy" paper is generally cheaper than paper labelled as "inkjet".

All of this is entirely separate from whether you use an inkjet or laser printer.  You can use either inkjet or laser paper on either type of printer.  You will get equivalent image quality with either paper on a laser printer, and slightly poorer quality if you use laser paper on an inkjetprinter.  However, if you stick glossy photo paper into an inkjet printer (whether that paper stipulates it is for laser or inkjet printers), what you print onto that paper will NOT bond/stick to copper surfaces. 

To have the same process take place as occurs with press-n-peel, you need to use one-sided glossy photo paper (either inkjet or laser quality) and laser-print the image onto the glossy side.

[DBDbadreligion]

alright thanks, i think my dad probally has a couple of laser printers at his work.  that way i wont have to buy one.

[DBDbadreligion]

alot of the inkjet photopapers say to not use them with laser printers.
is there like a good cahnce the printer will get damaged or ruined?

[theundeadelvis]

That paper would probably be ok, but investing in PnP will be less frustrating and less time consuming. I have had good luck with photo paper, and even glossy magazine covers, but I always go back to good ole' PnP blue.

[John Lyons]

Wow...talk about a convoluted subject and getting terms straight.

I'll try to break it down...

Laser printers and photocopiers (the black only ones) use a black powder type ink which is melted by a fuser on to whatever paper you run through it.

The toner transfer method which we are talking about here must use this black powder toner ink in order to work. The powdered toner is a type of plastic compound which sets on to of the papers surface and is melted to the paper and then when cool it becomes hard again, it's thick and opaque, ideally you will see no light through it. You can feel the toner on the papers surface (don't touch a section that you are going to use because the oils or dust on your fingers will inhibit the transfer)
Color laser printers may work but I would not think so. The ink is thinner and less opaque.

Ink jet printers use liquid ink which is water or some other base. It soaks into the paper and will not transfer with heat. Same thing as if you drew a design on a piece of paper with a sharpie...does not work...at all...

The reason the the toner transfer method works is because you can iron the toner and re melt it. When you put the paper with your toner PCB pattern on a piece of clean copper you are melting  the toner with the iron and transfering it from the paper to the copper. Then the copper board cools and you have transfered the image.

Ink Jet Photo paper is coated with a compound which the toner sticks to well and will come off the paper when you soak it in warm water. The paper dissoves and becomes pulp again like when it was made(basically). The coating of the ink jet paper is somewhat crucial to the transfer as it is another layer which  blocks the etchant from getting to the copper coated board of your PCB. Laser printer paper may work but I have only used ink jet paper. I would think that the coating used to absorb the ink ject ink is better for transfering the platic laser toner to copper. as well as how it cleans up with water.

Press and peel blue is a plastic sheet with a blue film over it. The blue film peels off where the pattern you printed is. Very similat in theory to photo paper. Press and peel film is more accurate because the film is finer and peels off easier which makes for cleaner transfers with super fine detail. It'd made for the job at hand, but you pay the price. Personally I can not afford to buy PnP blue so I spend a little more time to make the paper method work for me.

There are many photo papers to use and they all work to some degree. You will have to try them out and vary iron temperature and time ironing. Some have coated backs as well as dual sided papers which you can print on both sides. I would stay away from dual sided paper as you only need and want one side to transfer. Your iron will likely stick to the dual coated paper...Papers with a natural paper feel and backing (uncoated) will come off the best but near perfect results can be had with coated ones as well. I'm taking about the coating used to make the paper feel more like a photographic lab print.

The paper I use is Staples brand Photo Basic Gloss (red package Item# 471865) You can often find it on sale and it comes out to around 20 cents per sheet 8.5"x11".

I have found that using a photocopier with a dark setting works best for me. Just darken the copy it until you get shadows and back off one step. The thickness of the ink is key to getting a nice solid transfer and not getting pitting with the etchant. (small pits where the etchant gets under the toner transfer and eats up your board)


Here is my method:
www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html



Tips for all photo papers:
Use 400 grit (I use silicon carbide black wet/dry) to lightly sand the whole surface in two directions to remove oxidation and grime etc.
Lightly polish with #0000 steel wool to smooth out the rough scratches.
Iron your transferfor 5 minutes or less over all the board and especially corners. (may vary depending on paper or PnP blue.
Use the tip of the iron and press over the whole board alternating between the tip and the whole sole of the irons bottom.
Cool the board enough to handle it.
If the paper is coated on the back (shiney plastic like, not neccesarily dual sided...) you can rough up the backing after you iron the transfer on the board with a piece of 80 grit sand paper. This will let the water soaking penetrate faster.
Put a couple drops of dish soap on the papers backing and rub it in.
Soak the board in hot water from the faucet, no need to boil etc.  Let it soak for 30 minutes.. make some tea...have a sandwich...
The paper should be able to be peeled off and the remaining coating and paper pulp can be rubbed off and cleaned up with a soft tooth brush.
Keep it soaking if the paper is sluggish to come off.

I've had perfect results for many boards using this procedure. No flaking or pitting.

Well, that my take on it...

John

[DBDbadreligion]

thanks so much