Lovetone Flange With No Name - Clone Thread

[electricstorm]

Thanks again Ian! 

At least with the voltages (and setting my PSU to 11.2v) I can do some checking around the IC's.
I had been using 9v (the manual says 12v MAX) for some testing. The LFO is working, I get a
square and triangle wave output, so I assume the transistors are correct for this section. I have
also passed some signal through the I/P Gain section, although a little weak. For the time being,
I am using a tone generator for my signal input and an audio probe for tracing signals.

Missing from the list was C6 (tatnalum cap), need that value too when you get time. I have a
10uF, 35v tant in the C6 location now for testing purposes, but it may not be the right value.

Futurlec is holding me up on some of the LDR's I ordered back in December.    For now, I'll use
what I have (500k dark, 20k - 30k light) although it may not have a very large sweep.

Jim

[LaceSensor]

The diodes all appear to the 1n4148 type but its almost impossible to tell 100%. They look very similar to those in the dopp, and 1n4148 work there.
The cap in front of q9 is a 10uF / 35v electro, or if you mean the box cap near there, 47nF.
upped an image with annotations to my dropbox...

Regards

[electricstorm]

Ian,

You're a true life saver!! Thanks so much for the info!!!

I had assumed that the cap in front of Q9 was a 10uF/35v electro and the diodes
were 1N4148, but was not entirely sure. This helps a lot. I'm still wondering if
D2 is a zener or 1N4148. I will just have to try it with both and see, but I have no control
voltage to apply to the Trig/Gate jack unless I just take a voltage between 0.7v and
15v and apply it to the Trig/Gate. The manual says this is the voltage range to
use to stop/start or reset/sync the LFO. Will try a 1N4148 there first and see how it works
when I get to that section of the LFO.

I'll also check out the newly uploaded photo.

Really appreciate your input on this project!!

Jim

[LaceSensor]

Some box caps I've mislabelled as 1uf when Im fairly sure thy are 1nf
Sorry bout that

[electricstorm]

I have assembled the Flange ? as if it were to be boxed. All switches, jacks and wiring has been done. The I/P Gain, Depth, Rate, Manual, Action, and Reaction controls are working (after a few bad starts, will mention this later). It is flanging and has tremolo. The bias is a bit touchy on the BBD's, but I think I have it set correctly.

It produces some very unusual sounds along with the flanging. The Action and Reaction controls are "Center Off" type of controls, moving them in either direction produces slightly different sounds. The loopage foot switch only allows you to switch in or out the FX loop, nothing more. The Time foot switch seems to control the flanging portion, but also seems to interact with the tremolo. The Space foot switch seems to control the tremolo but also seem to interact with the flanger portion. I need to do some more experimentation with it.

Futurelec is holding up my order that I placed back in December. I had ordered several LDR's from them to try in the flanger. The only LDR's I have at the moment only produce a narrow "phasing" or "sweep range". They are about 5k - 10k light and 500k dark. Need 10k - 20k light, 1m dark at least and maybe something in the range of 20k - 50k light, 10m or 20m dark.

The main board LED's are diffuse green. The daughter board has a clear LED marked H.B. and have assumed it was a high brightness LED. Using a high brightness LED there causes sever ticking in the audio. I have three different diffused and tinted green LED's and tried those on the daughter board. One of them mad the ticking minimal. Now you can only hear ticking slightly when using the square wave portion of the LFO. It might be tolerable. Anyone have any suggestions?

Now, the "few bad starts" I mentioned had to do with the BBD's. I had ordered sixteen sets of MN3102/MN3207 combos from Polida on eBay. I thought I had blown the BBD's and decided to check them out in an old Radio Shack delay I had laying around (uses the same BBD's). All of the MN3102 worked fine, but out of 16 MN3207's, only four passed a delayed signal. The rest only passed a "Dry" signal. Anyone else have any problems like this before? Out of the four that were good, the delay time was shorter on them than than the original MN3207 from the RS delay. All of the MN3102's would drive the original MN3207 with no problems. I am currently using the original MN3207 from the RS delay in the flanger for now.

The substitutes at Smallbear, does anyone know if they will plug right in or do they need different voltages? I know they are pinout compatible, but not sure about voltage compatibility. Need to find some datasheets on them.

This is as far as I have gotten on the project so far. Will post some more pictures soon.

Jim

[electricstorm]

I have assembled the Flange ? as if it were to be boxed. All switches, jacks and wiring has been done. The I/P Gain, Depth, Rate, Manual, Action, and Reaction controls are working (after a few bad starts, will mention this later). It is flanging and has tremolo. The bias is a bit touchy on the BBD's, but I think I have it set correctly.

It produces some very unusual sounds along with the flanging. The Action and Reaction controls are "Center Off" type of controls, moving them in either direction produces slightly different sounds. The loopage foot switch only allows you to switch in or out the FX loop, nothing more. The Time foot switch seems to control the flanging portion, but also seems to interact with the tremolo. The Space foot switch seems to control the tremolo but also seem to interact with the flanger portion. I need to do some more experimentation with it.

Futurelec is holding up my order that I placed back in December. I had ordered several LDR's from them to try in the flanger. The only LDR's I have at the moment only produce a narrow "phasing" or "sweep range". They are about 5k - 10k light and 500k dark. Need 10k - 20k light, 1m dark at least and maybe something in the range of 20k - 50k light, 10m or 20m dark.

The main board LED's are diffuse green. The daughter board has a clear LED marked H.B. and have assumed it was a high brightness LED. Using a high brightness LED there causes sever ticking in the audio. I have three different diffused and tinted green LED's and tried those on the daughter board. One of them mad the ticking minimal. Now you can only hear ticking slightly when using the square wave portion of the LFO. It might be tolerable. Anyone have any suggestions?

Now, the "few bad starts" I mentioned had to do with the BBD's. I had ordered sixteen sets of MN3102/MN3207 combos from Polida on eBay. I thought I had blown the BBD's and decided to check them out in an old Radio Shack delay I had laying around (uses the same BBD's). All of the MN3102 worked fine, but out of 16 MN3207's, only four passed a delayed signal. The rest only passed a "Dry" signal. Anyone else have any problems like this before? Out of the four that were good, the delay time was shorter on them than than the original MN3207 from the RS delay. All of the MN3102's would drive the original MN3207 with no problems. I am currently using the original MN3207 from the RS delay in the flanger for now.

The substitutes at Smallbear, does anyone know if they will plug right in or do they need different voltages? I know they are pinout compatible, but not sure about voltage compatibility. Need to find some datasheets on them.

This is as far as I have gotten on the project so far. Will post some more pictures soon.

Jim


Edit: Ignore this second post, not sure why it posted twice.

[electricstorm]

I have a question about the circuit below. It is just a snippet of the whole circuit. My question is in regard to the diode in this circuit. Here's the circuit, questions to follow:



First of all, given the voltage range (0.7v - 15v), I assume the diode is to clamp the voltage at the max of 15v. Does this seem like a logical assumption? If not, what is the purpose of the diode?

Would this be a zener or a fast switching diode (such as a 1N914 or 4148)?

I have breadboarded the circuit without the diode and using a 9v trigger voltage and the circuit works just fine. Just stumped on the purpose of the diode. I do not have the actual pedal and therefore cannot read the value from the original diode. The circuit was drawn from a photo and the diode is a glass type.

Those that are more knowledgeable then me, would you shed some light on this please?

Thanks,

Jim

Edit: Posted correct picture.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Now, the "few bad starts" I mentioned had to do with the BBD's. I had ordered sixteen sets of MN3102/MN3207 combos from Polida on eBay. I thought I had blown the BBD's and decided to check them out in an old Radio Shack delay I had laying around (uses the same BBD's). All of the MN3102 worked fine, but out of 16 MN3207's, only four passed a delayed signal. The rest only passed a "Dry" signal. Anyone else have any problems like this before? Out of the four that were good, the delay time was shorter on them than than the original MN3207 from the RS delay. All of the MN3102's would drive the original MN3207 with no problems. I am currently using the original MN3207 from the RS delay in the flanger for now.

Jim,

The bolded part above most likely explains what your problem is... I believe it is simply BAD parts from eBay.

In my personal opinion, Polida is not the best source for ICs. Rampant fakes, bad parts, etc.

If you need MN3207s... let me know and I might be able to help the cause 

Other than that, I believe that Steve has MN3207s at smallbear. What are these "substitutes" that you are referring to?

[LaceSensor]

I imagine cool audio v3207s

[Govmnt_Lacky]

I imagine cool audio v3207s

You are correct sir!

I imagine that either the V3207 or BL3207s would work. I know that Steve would not have them for sale if they were not proven items.

Either way, let me know 

[digi2t]

Polida is not the best source for ICs.

Polida is on my black list, as is gc_supermarket. "gc" NOT standing for "good & cheap", but rather, "garbage & crap".

To date, I've only had luck with suppliers from Hong Kong, or Singapor. China has been totally abysmal.

Stay away from Chinese mainland suppliers.

[electricstorm]

Yes, the V3207D (Cool Audio) and the BL3207 (from China) were the one's I was talking about. I had been told on madbean's forum that Polida was a trusted supplier for BBD's, but that really sucks having the majority of the BBD's bad (except the MN3201's, they all worked fine).

I know the two versions above are pin-for-pin compatible, the supply voltage is what I am concerned about since the Flange can be run between 9v - 12v (12v giving more headroom). But the 12v is the absolute max you can run on the Flange without risking damage. If these will run in this voltage range, there shouldn't be a problem.

Steve at SmallBear does not have any MN3207's. All I could find were MN3005, 3007, and 3008. in the MN series BBD's. If you have a reliable source for them, let me know.

On the diagram, I'm thinking maybe the diode is to help the gate function work better . Got this from a madbean forum member. But he was not entirely sure about this. We still don't know if it is a regular switching diode, zener, schottky, or whatever. The symbol was a place holder in the diagram till we could figure it out, so don't let that fool you into thinking it is definately a switching diode of some kind. It works without the diode, but I will try a 1N4148 and see what happens, can't hurt!

Ian, may not need the transistor voltages now since it seems to be working. Just not sure if it is working correctly. I had three vactrols, VTL5C3, and tried them on the main board. They sounded better than the LDR's I currently have (still waiting on Futurelec!!). I later swapped one onto the daughter board and it killed the delay entirely. Setting the bias had no effect at all. So that one will have to have a "roll your own" it looks like. The ticking was almost inaudible with the green LED on the daughter board. It's more of a thumping sound now when in square wave mode. Is the the way it is supposed to work?
isThanks guys!

Jim

[toneman]

Probably just a normal 914 or 4148. 

Looks like it's acting as a clamping diode to protect the transistor.

The diode will shunt negative spikes to gnd.

The capacitor, C1, blocks DC from the base of the Q1.

If U were to put 1VDC directly on the base of the transistor, it would go POOF!

R9 limits the current for a DC Gate signal to Q1.

[electricstorm]

Here's a photo update on the Lovetone Flanger:

Top side (the LED/LDR is missing from the daughter board)


What I call the rat's nest


Back side


Switches



The big black things toward the bottom center are Vactrols (VTL5C3) that I am trying for now. So far, they sound better than the LDR/LED combos but that may be due to the fact I don't have all the LDR's yet to try. The Vactrols don't work for the daughter board. It kills the delay and re-setting the bias does nothing for it.

Using a green diffused LED on the daughter board seems to eliminate the ticking. There is a thumping sound only on the square wave selection of the LFO. The manual mentions something about thumping when selecting the square wave. I guess this is what it what it is talking about. The triangle wave gives a decent sweep, but maybe it could be better with different LDR's. Just a guess.

I have obtained some flanger sounds but can't seem to nail the chorus sound yet. The rate for the LFO is selectable from an extremely SLOW rate to an over-the-top fast oscillation. At the upper end of the rate control I can get a sort of ring modulation sound.

I added the 1N4148 diode to the D2 location and will re-test this later.

That's about it for now.

Jim

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Jim,

Sounds like you are almost there. I am guessing that once you get your LDRs in that you will get the EUREKA moment! 

As for the LED on the daughter board... Don't all of the pictures show a diffused green LED in that spot DESPITE the board indicating a HB one? Food for thought. MAybe Lovetone "thought" it needed to be HB but, later they found out that it was not working but they already had the boards made.

Awesome work though. I have a feeling that once you get this thing working..... it is gonna catch on like wildfire!

[electricstorm]

Greg,

Lacesensor did say the LED on the daughter board was a clear green, but only glowed at about medium brightness. So, like you and Lacesensor said, it will be a
diffused green LED. The VTL5C3 measures more than 20M for dark, but I haven't measured the light value yet. They seem to work good for the main board just,
a bit expensive though! Hopefully, I can find an LED/LDR combo that will work there. You could also be right about the H.B. on the Lovetone boards. They probably
already had them made and went with what they had, plus it would throw people like us off the trail so to speak!! LOL

Toneman asked for the schematic and has also asked for a set of boards to mess with. I sent him the schemo and am checking with the guy that made my boards
to see if the price is still the same. I've been contemplating making a smaller double sided boards, but they might have to have SMD parts due to the number of
components on them. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it, for now I just want to get it going. Do you want a set of boards, depending on the price, if he will do
another set for me? Lacesensor may or may not be interested in a set too.

I have finished a set of wiring diagrams to replace the one I posted earlier. Much neater and readable, but it is three pages. Got to get around to making a build doc
on this. I have a parts BOM somewhat ready. The schematics for the main board print out too small because it is so huge. I've been looking at the main board trying
to figure a way to squeeze those components near Q9 onto the board instead of to the other components, but may have to do a re-design of the board. Then more
debugging and so on. Will have to see what can be done.

I described what sounds I have obtained from it so far, but I can't seem to get a chorus sound from it. I am going to order some BBD's from Steve at Smallbear and try
those in there. I finally found some data sheets on the ones he carries and it looks like they will plug right in without worrying about the supply voltage. They were all
rated for up to 10volts.

I was looking at a formula for initially setting the bias for the BBD. It was:

Vbias = 0.42 + (0.54 * Vdd)

Then, from what I've read, you fine tune it to get rid of the distortion. What do you think? and, if you want to find Vdd for whatever reason, use this:

Vdd = (Vbias -.042)/.054

Anyway, still learning about these BBD's (and LED/LDR combos too). But the flanger appears to be working. Whether it is working correctly or not is another story!! 

Jim

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Jim,

As for the boards, we discussed this via PM and I will probably just etch my own since I have a lot of copper PCB on hand.

If you decide to do a smaller board, you may want to try to avoid SMD. It tends to scare a lot of people away. That being said, if you can work out the hodge podge of parts around Q9 and get them a proper place on the board.... GREAT! If not, then it is not a major problem. 

If I were you, I would email Futurlec and cancel the order. You can get a bag of 10K/1M LDRs on fleabay for about $3-5  AND... they will probably arrive faster than Futurlec!!!

As for the BBD biasing. If you have access to an oscope and sig gen, all you need to do is inject a small sine wave into the circuit and adjust the bias trim until you get the best UNCLIPPED waveform at the BBD input.

Good Luck and let me know if you need anything else! 

[LaceSensor]

for the avoidance of doubt the LED on the Lovetone chips board is clear (see through) but glows green.
It looks like a high bright water clear to me. But as I found with the Doppelganger, diffuse greens work best with the available LDRs that I could source, and that will no doubt be the case here.
Experimentation is the key, unless you wish to find a vintage Lovetone, but it, and start desoldering the vactrols to find out what LDRs they actually used, and the fV of the LEDs....

Looking forward to a full project doc...hope you plan to make one...

[electricstorm]

Looking forward to a full project doc...hope you plan to make one...

When this is finished, there will be a build doc. I have started one, but it is incomplete at the moment.

Looking a bit ahead, I'm trying to figure out how to box it up. Found a Hammond enclosure that might
work, but it's a little bigger than the original box the flanger was in. What do you suggest?

I have placed an order for some LDR's on eBay, we'll see how that goes. Futurelec is a lost cause at
the moment.  

Greg, I finally bought a scope and have it on the bench now. I've ordered some BBD's from Smallbear and
when they come in, I'll try the scope on the input of the BBD to set the bias as you described. Thanks again!

[digi2t]

Looking a bit ahead, I'm trying to figure out how to box it up. Found a Hammond enclosure that might
work, but it's a little bigger than the original box the flanger was in. What do you suggest?

I put my Ringstinger build into one of these, http://canada.newark.com/multicomp/g124mf/box-diecast-222x146x55mm/dp/55T2820 . They are also available in grey and black, yet I haven`t found them without ears yet. Personally, I like the ears, and mount rails on them. I guess if you really don`t want the ears, you could just cut them off.

Build pics, featuring said enclosure, are here, http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=97115.0