when can you call it your own circuit?

[choklitlove]

just curious.  i've been thinking about this for that hysteresis oscillator.  and hopefully for future builds and whatnot.

i know it doesn't take much, because of all those TS clones out there.  i'm also curious about how you guys would feel about it.  if you guys wouldn't think that was cool, that means as much to me as it being illegal.  i'm not trying to start a business or anything, but selling some things doesn't seem like a bad idea right now.

and what point would i not even have to reference the original anymore?  i think it's a completely different circuit now, don't you?


these questions are mostly just out of curiosity.  thanks!

[soggybag]

That's a great question. It seems like it's mostly an opinion thing.

From what I've read here it seems that a circuit can not be copyright. Though it can be patented. I doubt most anything here would be patented. Either it's already been patented or would be too costly to patent.

Opinion wise it's a question of what the community sees as significant change.

I like your Hysteresis Oscillator.

[oldrocker]

The Hysteresis Oscillator is a great circuit.  You get a funky tremolo and bit crusher effects out of it.  I say it's yours man.  I wish I would've came up with that.

[ulysses]

previous precedents have shown that if you take the BSIABII tone control and put it between a couple of SHO's then you are an originator and everyone else is a copycat.

claiming that a circuit is "yours" is like staking claim to land in the wild west. just say its yours and slander everyone who disagrees with you.

cheers
ulysses

[ambulancevoice]

just call it what you want, who cares....

[choklitlove]

thanks for the replies, guys.  here's another question: say i call it mine and sell it.  what kind of protection should i pursue against other people selling it?  i don't mind at all if people make their own, but if it gets stolen and sold.

should i just goop it, hide the schematic, and call it a day?  i'd hate to stop people from making their own like that though.

[ulysses]

the only real way to protect yourself from cloners is to outprice and outclass them.

make a really nice product - enclosure, graphics, build quality and sell it for what its worth.

mi audio have the right idea - sell the product based on cost of parts + labor + a bit of profit - they are not really desirable to clone becasue you can have a real one fairly cheaply if you want.

i would say mi audio sell more pedals than most booteakers simply becasue of price. of all the shop owners i speak to, they say they move mi audio the most.. surprisingly they all say they have trouble moving most of the "hyped" brand names except fulltone.. they say fulltone moves becasue he does a lot of advertising.. who knows.. the mi audio stuff seems to sell itself.. prob becasue most guitarists are broke!

cheers
ulysses

[choklitlove]

i was planning on around $50 a pedal.  finished BB enclosure, true bypass, switchcraft, etc.  sound good?  i'm adding the price of parts per pedal right now...

i was also planning on having a discount for members of this board because your help is priceless.

[ulysses]

$50 is pretty damn cheap..

i'd try and sell it for $100 or so or people might think its crap purely based on price..

cheers
ulysses

[choklitlove]

that's a good point... but i don't want to rip them off.

we all know how cheap parts actually are.  i added up everything, and $50 is far more than doubling the price of parts.

maybe $100 for normals and $50 for forum members...

[the_random_hero]

that's a good point... but i don't want to rip them off.

we all know how cheap parts actually are.  i added up everything, and $50 is far more than doubling the price of parts.

maybe $100 for normals and $50 for forum members...

The thing is this - 'normal' people have no idea how much parts cost. Not to say you should be ripping everybody off, but talk up your product as much as you can. Make sure you make a clear reference to the 'expensive triple pole double throw' switches and how true-bypass is the only way to go with any sort of pedals (wonder who can pick that reference there?)
When I start making more than one-offs or pedals for friends, I'm going to do a sort of discount for another website I'm a member of and then add like $10 for the normal public. $100 for a custom-made pedal isn't much more than the cost of Boss pedals over here, so I'd have no moral qualms with charging that much.

[slacker]

the simple answer is you can do what you want with the circuit and so can anyone else.

[R.G.]

... and another flower blooms.

[ulysses]

... and another flower blooms.

rg i swear you have a second hobby as a botanist

cheers
ulysses

[R.G.]

Not really - I just spread around a lot of manure and watch.   

[markm]

Not really - I just spread around a lot of manure and watch.  

Now THAT's Funny!!

[Dragonfly]

Not really - I just spread around a lot of manure and watch.   

Quote of the day....

Maybe the quote of the year ! 

[kvb]

hey choklitlove,

In regard to the products price, my opinion (based on certain non-pedal based experiences) is that the price of the completed product should actually be about 3 times the cost of parts.

Don't sell yourself short.
Also, keep in mind the arguments made by those who sell pedals for a living. They always mention overhead and living costs - these are included in the price of a product.

As far as protecting the IP goes, it appears that once the info is presented publicly (on the web) it is fair game for anyone to take and use.
If and when I have something to present that is marketable, I will rely on the hex method of protecting my stuff. Kind of like the messages found in the entrance to a Pharaoh's tomb: "you will be eaten by a crocodile . . . " etc. 

If your intent is just to make a couple of bucks and see how things go, I can only imagine that you will receive good support from good forum members.


edited to say: as far as the original question - my opinion is that a circuit would be considered yours if you have done research > that led to concusions of your own > that led you to make certain changes based on your own decisions.

[birt]

50 might be double the parts cost but if you sell them as a business you have to earn at least 10% profit on the parts, you need to ask a fair price for the time it costs to build it including the taxes you would have to pay (wich means you need to ask double of what you want) and then you still need to ask something extra to pay for the time you invested in the design. and then you have VAT... that explains high prices. it also shows that Boss is actually asking too much for factory made stuff that sells in BIG quantities.

so i would ask 80-100 as a hobby builder. when i build something to sell (as a backline technician i sometimes have to) i ask what i need to when i make the calculations i stated above.

oh and i think a design is yours if it sounds really different from everything else or the way to get that sound is completely different. to me that also means that if you combine 2 or 3 parts of different effects and make them sound special together, it's your design. most of what i build is made that way because i'm not an engineer, i'm more of an artist. i have an enormous respect tough for people who CAN design from scratch. but those people probably use a lot of circuits that are made by others for different purposes too so when can you say you designed from scratch?

[Ronsonic]

I'm going to chime in on this, too.

For $50 a pedal you cannot do a good enough job to be worth bothering. If you're hand building you can have a couple hours on every pedal. If you just paid yourself what a guy who can solder is worth and add the parts, you've made no profit and will have lost if you figure overhead, taxes and all the other stuff. Even as a hobby builder you deserve better than that. Sure, I've got a friends and family price - but even that wouldn't hurt me if I had to sell bunches at that rate. And if you wanted to try new things with others paying for the parts, that's sure legit. Just seems if you're going to advertise a thing you need to charge enough to afford to continue producing it.

Handy pricing guide, look for a mass market pedal of similar size and control count and function and look at its list price. Right there or a little more is not a bad place to be. Nothing's much simpler than an MXR Dist+ and those were $140 -150ish list the last I looked.

Ron