Boutique effects = DIY projects

[soggybag]

I did a rough estimate of cost for making pedals and came up with about $50 as the cost for parts. Labor on the other hand was harder to calculate. I don't sit down and make one. More likely I put in an 15 minutes to hour here and there. And, I usually have 3 or more projects going at the same time, a few of which may have been going for as long as a year, and maybe a few that may never get finished.

If you figure $50 as cost for parts. If you paid yourself $50 for labor, which I think is about minimum wage, that's a $100. If you add a little for your company to make some profit, let's say another $50, that's $150. Now to sell them your dealer needs to make a profit. I'm not sure what the standard mark up is for guitar effects, but double would be a good place to start. At this point your pedals are in a shop for $300.

Shoot! At this point I'd rather buy by ZVex!

Those are just rough estimates and a few guesses. I think you might be able to get your business to be more efficient by buying parts cheaper. But this would mean a bigger investment up front. You'd need to be buying larger amounts of parts. Which means you'd need to sell more of your product, or you might take a loss from a back log of your Tube Screamer clones.

So, I think the MG guy is making a run for it. Of course the rest of us are thinking I could have built that or $50 bah! But labor is nothing to someone who has spent the time enjoying their hobby and is not expecting to make a profit.

[markm]

I think it's been discussed here before, if I remember correctly, you can only patent a circuit design. The process is expensive and difficult. The art on the PCB can be copyright, which is much easier.

I beleive this to be true as well.
You know what is strange about all of this?
People are bitching about this guy using JD's PCBs and Selling them in his effects, but no one here seems to look at the LARGE amount of fellow forumites whom etch PCBs from the Layouts Gallery here and sell them to other members of the forum?
Why is that?
I've seen my boards trading hands Numerous times for cash in the for-sale area and even posts about it in the forum and nobody seems to think this is a bad thing so, why then say this guy is "bad" for selling his well decorated and constructed DIY stuff?
Is this a Double-Standard? 

[snoof]

I think it's been discussed here before, if I remember correctly, you can only patent a circuit design. The process is expensive and difficult. The art on the PCB can be copyright, which is much easier.

I beleive this to be true as well.
You know what is strange about all of this?
People are bitching about this guy using JD's PCBs and Selling them in his effects, but no one here seems to look at the LARGE amount of fellow forumites whom etch PCBs from the Layouts Gallery here and sell them to other members of the forum?
Why is that?
I've seen my boards trading hands Numerous times for cash in the for-sale area and even posts about it in the forum and nobody seems to think this is a bad thing so, why then say this guy is "bad" for selling his well decorated and constructed DIY stuff?
Is this a Double-Standard? 

I would not have a problem with someone selling a home etched board from the gallery for the parts cost only.  The PNP blue and copper board aint cheap!  Then you have the Ferric, and the acetone costs.  If said person receiving the PCB was not going to sell it in a pedal, it seems fine to me.

[markm]

I think it's been discussed here before, if I remember correctly, you can only patent a circuit design. The process is expensive and difficult. The art on the PCB can be copyright, which is much easier.

I beleive this to be true as well.
You know what is strange about all of this?
People are bitching about this guy using JD's PCBs and Selling them in his effects, but no one here seems to look at the LARGE amount of fellow forumites whom etch PCBs from the Layouts Gallery here and sell them to other members of the forum?
Why is that?
I've seen my boards trading hands Numerous times for cash in the for-sale area and even posts about it in the forum and nobody seems to think this is a bad thing so, why then say this guy is "bad" for selling his well decorated and constructed DIY stuff?
Is this a Double-Standard? 

I would not have a problem with someone selling a home etched board from the gallery for the parts cost only.  The PNP blue and copper board aint cheap!

Agreed.
But, isn't that selling somone else's artwork such as MG has been accused of? Have a look in the for sale pages here.
Read through some of the ads, some are making a decent "profit" etching PCB's from both TP, GGG and the Layout Gallery here.
However, no one seems to have any comment about it. 
I think JD or Francisco would have a problem with someone placing ads in the for sale area of this forum selling GGG boards or Tonepad boards? Or, how about making about 10-15 Tonepad or GGG PCB's and ebaying them?
Aren't we talking the same thing then?

[snoof]

Selling GGG etc. boards that have been home etched for profit is totally bogus, it's clearly against their rules.  As to people using GGG etc. boards to make a pedal and sell it, I have no prob with that as long as, A) they pay GGG etc.for the boards, or B) state clearly that the pedal is made with "whomever's" parts.  Pumping out Mojo BS, and not being straightforward as to the contents is weak.

Edit:  clarification

[markm]

Selling GGG etc. boards that have been home etched is totally bogus, it's clearly against their rules. 

How 'bout the home etchers selling PCBs from our Gallery here?
Kinda fits in the same way doesn't it?   

[snoof]

I guess I am always assuming that when someone states "blah blah PCB from Tonepad for sale" that it was/is a bought board, not a home etched version.  I guess I should inquire before buying

[snoof]

Selling GGG etc. boards that have been home etched is totally bogus, it's clearly against their rules. 

How 'bout the home etchers selling PCBs from our Gallery here?
Kinda fits in the same way doesn't it?   

My statement above should have said "GGG etc, boards for profit".  Yes I see your point.  I guess that the sellers should take that into account when setting prices for PCB's etched from the gallery.  My feeling is that the cost should be just for parts only.  Or make a deal with the layout designer maybe??  It could get a little grey there.  Compensate the layout designer, but not the crkt designer(if different people)??  Hmm...  Trouble brewing there methinks.

[markm]

Selling GGG etc. boards that have been home etched is totally bogus, it's clearly against their rules. 

How 'bout the home etchers selling PCBs from our Gallery here?
Kinda fits in the same way doesn't it?   

My statement above should have said "GGG etc, boards for profit".  Yes I see your point.  I guess that the sellers should take that into account when setting prices for PCB's etched from the gallery.  My feeling is that the cost should be just for parts only.  Or make a deal with the layout designer maybe??  It could get a little grey there.  Compensate the layout designer, but not the crkt designer(if different people)??  Hmm...  Trouble brewing there methinks.

Yeah, could be! 
This is a possible IP argument I think. 
We put the projects up in the Gallery for FREE, and the PCB guys get $12 a whack to etch a board for someone who wants to build the circuit.
Here's the best part, there's a whole "catalog" right here to choose from with reviews and all the info needed to build the circuit.
When it comes to any de-bugging who gets the PM?
Not the guy that just made 10 bucks......the Guy with the Layout!! 

[snoof]

Hah!  Yeah man, I bet you get alot of that!  Yes, I guess it's going towards the sticky IP argument again, sheesh...

[The Tone God]

I think JD or Francisco would have a problem with someone placing ads in the for sale area of this forum selling GGG boards or Tonepad boards?

Instead of guessing who would have a problem with what why don't you ask them directly ?

Andrew

[snoof]

As a comparison;

In the world of live music trading, the unwritten rule is that if someone wants a show that you have, they will pay for the price of the CD's and shipping only.  Similarly, if someone is selling their collection, the price charged can be for media only(this is sometimes debated).  Shows cannot be "bought", only traded, or given for the cost of media only(or for free).  Although the effort involved in duplicating a CD is not the same as the effort put into etching and drilling a PCB, but an argument could be made that the supplies should be charged for, but not the labor. 

Another comparison;

People that tape live concerts have invested multiple thousands of dollars in their rig, and after the show is over, invested lots of time to transfer, tweak and track out the recording.    The people that download,or receive it via other methods(sometimes after screaming "where is the show already!" only after hours of the show ending)listen to the show and reap all the rewards with none of the effort.  Then bitch and moan if something is not "just perfect".  People that cry out for layouts quickly from schematics are similar in that they are doing none of the effort, but wanting the results quickly, and without error.  In addition, people will take these layouts and produce a pedal that they sell.  Similarly, sometimes shows that people have taped end up on Ebay... for sale!!  The entitlement thing is alive and well in many aspects of the world!

Not trying to make a judgment, or act "holier than thou", but the points brought up in this thread peaked my interest.  I usually just try to stay low and learn me something.

[soulsonic]

My opinion is that the DIY layouts should be for DIY folks buiding for themselves and their friends; not would-be booteekers who intend to sell their wares for profit. If a person can't design his own layout for a product he plans to sell, then HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS SELLING PEDALS!!! I'm getting really fed up with these booteeker chumps who don't shit about anything. They can go to hell and kiss my ass because I've worked damn hard to learn how to do what I do, and there's nothing more insulting than asshole morons profiting from the hard work of guys like Mark. Those people are the true thieves in this business. Mark did all those layouts for the benefit of the community so people can have an easier time building stuff for fun - not as R&D work for some wannabe booteeker.

Maybe you could call this an argument about IP, but I think the real issue is business integrity...... and the issue of mercantile bourgeoisie living off the backs of the working man and the artists... but I'm not a big fan of Marx so I guess I shouldn't go there.

[soggybag]

Think about it as MG guy has hired the services of GGG to design and produce PCBs. GGG gallery of effects is part of the service he provides. This makes his business a better choice for MG guy.

[foxfire]

but don't you take the chance of having you design stolen/used if you post it on line? if someone makes a design and wants to be the only one selling it then they shouldn't post it. granted we have an unwritten rule or understanding of respect for eachother but, you can't count on that alone when money is involved. i hate to say it but if you are that worried about your design being stolen get it copywrit en or patented or whatever and certainly don't post it. and then if someone steals it hope someone here will pick up on it and pass it on.

just to note, i am still rather new to diy and the forum so i consequently don't have any posted designs because i haven't come up with any to speak of. i can't wait to see if i feel the same way in a year or two?

[soulsonic]

I generally don't post up unique designs that I sell - maybe a gutshot, maybe even a schematic, but not a full layout and "project". Anything I post, I intend for people to build freely, though I do not extend that freedom who would sell the design for a profit - that would be subject to licensing.

[soggybag]

If your idea is really great you should patent it. Definitely don't post it to the internet.

If your idea is based on someone else's idea, you shouldn't be convincing yourself that it other people are trying to steal "your idea".

I think anyone selling an effect should realize that people are going to reverse engineer it. If you are making it better at a reasonable price then people will want to buy it. The people that want to go through the trouble of making their wouldn't have bought one from you anyway. Anyone making a clone will only be successful if they can do it as better or cheaper. But you will have the advantage of being first to the market.

[markm]

I don't think the point is actually coming across here,
This isn't about stealing ideas, it's about fellow forumites making money from fellow forumites.
Members of this forum selling PCBs that are made from the Layout Gallery of this forum for profit.
This is just as bad if not worse than the MG debacle IMO.
Very reminiscent of the Sustain Punch thing many moons ago.

[soulsonic]

As far as poor folks like me are concerned; patents are prohibitively expensive and pretty much an impossibility for simple circuits such as these. I prefer to just not share something special openly - if someone buys one of my pedals and reverse-engineers it, then fine, they've purchased the right to do so by purchasing the pedal so I shouldn't complain.

[markm]

Think about it as MG guy has hired the services of GGG to design and produce PCBs. GGG gallery of effects is part of the service he provides. This makes his business a better choice for MG guy.

Interesting thought.
JD would be getting his "cut" of the final price if MG indeed purchases the circuit board from him.