I HATE PERF BOARD!

[Pushtone]

Try cheating by taping a PCB layout, printed on paper, on top of the perf.

[Paul Marossy]

Try cheating by taping a PCB layout, printed on paper, on top of the perf.

I've done that before. It certainly helps!

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Rules for working with perf:
11) Get to know SIP chips.  The AN6551 is a 9-pin single-in-line equivalent of a 4558, and there are plenty of other decent dual op-amps on a SIP.  I still can't get over how easy it is to lay out a circuit on perf using SIP op-amps instead of DIP.  Not only do these puppies let you choose which side of the chip you want to place each of the various components in a feedback loop; you can choose to connect V+ to either pin 1 or pin 9.  It's like the difference between trying to make out in a car with bucket seats versus bench seats.

It's advice like this - and analogies like that - that make me look foward to mark hammer's next 10,000 posts

[foxfire]

how long does it take to etch an average sized board start to finish? i'm still under 20 builds. all but one were perf. i tried a vero build early on and didn't like it. the main reason i like perf is that i can just run over to radio shack and grab some more. if i haven't already bought it all.

[cheeb]

I used to hate perf until I made myself get better at it. Now it's my #1 for simple builds, followed by PCB for everything else. I HATE VERO!

[Mark Hammer]

how long does it take to etch an average sized board start to finish?

These days, with PnP and glossy photo paper, hardly any time at all.  Compared to the old days, like the difference between taking an engineering exam with a slide rule vs a scientific/engineering calculator.  Armed with a laser printer (or photocopied layout), my trusty bench drill press, and some reasonably fresh etchant, I can usually go from picture to drilled and tinned board in under an hour. 

The tricky part for most people seems to be:
a) getting the hang of how long the image/pattern has to be ironed to result in a good transfer (i.e., knowing when it's "done") and waiting for it to cool off
b) differentiating between etchant that still has some life in it and etchant that needs disposal

If you have enough copies of the PCB pattern to practice with so that you can get a decent transfer, and etchant that hasn't turned black from overuse, a decent board can easily be etched in 20 minutes in even very primitive circumstances (i.e., no automatic bubbler/shaker, no optimal heat source, just a plastic container and etchant).  Do a search for the MANY threads here about transferring patterns and getting good etches.  Plenty of good advice.

Having said that, I still enjoy perfing projects and find perfing a perfectly acceptable way to either fit a circuit into a different physical space or to permit the addition of certain features or controls that a PCB may not anticipate.  And sometimes, just sometimes, it's actually faster to perf than to etch and drill.

[David]

I'd rather etch and drill a PCB than to perf, although I have done it in the past. It's just more work and takes more planning than a PCB. 

Sigh...   

Do you need another visit from that squadron of Borg again?   

[aron]

i dont get it.  its a pain in the ass.

That's because you are junk at it 

Seriously, once you attain a certain control over it, it is FAST. Really. No etching, it's reliable, the signal flow is easy to understand.
It works for simple to moderate circuits. After that it's no good.

It's kind of like practicing guitar. It's a pain in the ass.

[the recluse]

I did my first three builds on perf and then started using PCBs which let my need for instant gratification get the better of me.  I recently revisited the perfboard and built a couple of small projects on it (Multi-Face, AMZ Mosfet Boost), and I think the fact that my soldering/layout skills had improved from building on PCBs helped a lot.  I haven't tried building on vero, but I am not opposed to it (and will ordering some form the store soon), but I think PCBs will remain my primary mode.

On a side note I salvaged some enclosures and switches from my first builds to house my new perfboard builds and man were my old ones messy.  Embarrassing to say the least.

[soulsonic]

My first build was a Tube Sound Fuzz and I built it on perfboard - pretty much following the pics found in Electronic Projects for Musicians. In the intro tutorial part of the book, there's a section about the different kinds of circuit boards you could use and there's a pic of the TSF built up on perfboard. I went with that because I had no clue how to go about etching a circuit board or any of that. It turned out great and I've been a strong believer in perfboard ever since. My thing is that is must be unclad plain perfboard. I can't stand the kind with solder pads on it - way too messy! I really don't mess with stripboard either - it seems like alot of space gets wasted. On perfboards, I prefer to build things really tight and compact - there's certain component arrangements that are nearly impossible with a PCB without having to do multiple layers, but with a perfboard, just use some insulated wire and you can do as many "layers" as you want.

I etched my own PC boards before and gotten decent results, I just always have loved the perfboard best for little one-off projects or prototypes. I'm looking into doing PC boards for some of my designs that have become "standardized", but I'll most likely have those made by someone like PCBExpress for the sake of saving me the hassle. Drilling is the worst part to me - I can't stand the drilling. It really seems like alot of the build time I save by using a PC board gets wasted on the process of making the board. I'm sure if I did it all the time, I'd get faster at it, like how I've gotten fast with perfboard, I just really don't like the whole etching process - I don't like messing with nasty chemicals and I don't like all the waste it creates - I'd much rather leave that job to experts who've dedicated their careers to doing all that correctly.

[shawn]

how long does it take to etch an average sized board start to finish? i'm still under 20 builds. all but one were perf. i tried a vero build early on and didn't like it. the main reason i like perf is that i can just run over to radio shack and grab some more. if i haven't already bought it all.

To actually etch, I etched two boards (around 3.5"x3.5") which were to be sandwiched together to create a double sided board in about 5-7 minutes. One way to make etching times quicker other than heating your etchant is to fill in all the empty space as well. That way you will have MUCH less surface area to etching and will save you etchant in the long run.  I'm going to write a tutorial soon that will show you how to take an existing image (using a free image program OR photoshop if you are rich) and with a few clicks you will have it ready to print a layout that fills in the empty space.

The board would resemble this if you are confused:

[markm]

That's why I fill in my transfers, saves tremendously on etching time!
And, you can have all sorts of messages on the transfer too!! 

[shawn]

That's why I fill in my transfers, saves tremendously on etching time!
And, you can have all sorts of messages on the transfer too!! 

HAH exactly! Funny images btw.

[Minion]

For simple Pedal curcuits i usually grab a small piece of Blank PCB and a sharpie and simply draw the curcuit on to the PCB material and then etch in muriotic acid and peroxide and then drill the holes....I can draw and etch a simple booster or distortion pedal in well under an hour and even less for the build....I can usually draw the pcb by just looking at the schematic , for slightly more complex curcuits i will design the PCB first and then draw it on to the PCB and etch and for much more complex curcuits I design the PCB and print out on photo paper and then transfer and etch...it is cheaper than PNP and once you get the hang of it it isn"t much harder than PNP....


Cheers

[Fuzzy-Train]

I've never tried perf, but I will for my next project. I actually can't wait to try it... looks like challenging fun to me.

Any other tips for someone who's trying it for the 1st time? I'm a very patient person when I make my pedals so I will take my time, and I plan on doing something like pushtones pic only I'll do it with a sharpie instead... printer is on the frits.

[petemoore]

  Until after ROG posted a perfboard layout template and I found out about it, I'd put paper over perf and rub with side of pencil tip to make the dots I could connect, drafting circuit to perfboard layouts, this really helped with learning what's what in circuits, soon you can recognize a gain or buffer stage [take a look at some wiki's]
   after drawing up a few drafts of what the circuit could look like, considering crossing wires below the board [actually other than watching to see that I have sufficient physical structure, I'll build parts of nodes above the board, this makes it easier to do and then test/debug, also I was never into super tight circuit layouts, but this can ease up room and reduce crossing wires/makes good 'readable' test points too/room for possible mods].
  ...@@rate practicing drafting a circuit a few times on paper, thinking how any moved parts affect others placements...count how many connections at each node, color coding component types, noting polarities and orientations...
  I used to chant to myself out loud..lol..."This one goes there, and only there, it is the only one that goes there and nothing else goes there..."
  "But this one...this little bastard has 5 freqin' connections, it's part of a voicing structure and also has polarity and pinout assignments, parts that go to ground and one that goes to V+..."
  5X connections:
  "Polarized cap '-'
  Polarized diode '-'
  PNP transistor base,
  Two resistors" [one bigger to V+, one smaller to V- = Gnd.] 
Repeat 3x...
  then there's this emitter node...

[oldrocker]

I LOVE PERFBOARD!!!!!!  I'm mean I love it.  I've built everything so far using perfboard.  Of course take into consideration everything Mark H. wrote.  But it's fun and I can build a fairly complex circuit in a few hours.  It just takes practice.  I learned so much from doing it that way.  I haven't done vero or etched a PCB but I'm sure those techniques would be challenging and interesting to.
Below are some of what I've built on perfboard.
FUZZ & DISTORTION EFFECTS
Fuzz Face - Muff Fuzz (Op amp and transister) -  Big Muff PI (Op amp and transstor) -  Boss Tone - Blues Breaker - Pro Co Rat - Voodoo Lab - DOD 250 Distortion - Tube Screamer 808 - Highway 89 - Mock Man (Rock Man) - Red Llama - Omni Drive

OCTAVE DISTORTION
Green Ringer - NeOctavia - ShackTave - Scrambler

BOOSTERS AMPS & SIMULATORS
Noisy Cricket Amp - Ruby Amp - Strato Blaster - Condor (Cab Sim) - Professor Tweed (Amp Sim) - Headbanger Stereo Headphone Amp

MODULATION EFFECTS
MXR Phase 45 - Easy Vibe - Pulsar (Tremolo) - Kay (Tremolo)
Cheap Auto Wah - Zombie Chorus - Ultra Flanger

COMPRESSION & GATE
FlatLine Compressor - DOD 280 Comp. - Orange Squeezer
MXR Noise Gate

WAH AND ENVELOPE FILTERS
Color Sound Wah - VOX 847 Wah - Dr. Quack (Dr. Q)
Nurse Quacky (From Dr. Q) - Phuncgnosis Auto Wah

COOL SOUND EFFECTS - DELAY
Rebote 2.5 (Delay) - Ugly Face - Crash Sync
Nyquist Aliaser - SG-1 Slow Gear - Princeton (Rebote) Delay
Colin Analog Bit Crusher - Hysteresis Oscillator
Random Number Generator (RNG) - Atari Punk Console















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[sshrugg]

My first build was with an etched PCB with my own layout.  Every step of the way was fun and I'm so insanely proud of that thing.  Professional results, 100% home made.  It was a fuzz face, too, so it looked simple until it came to the etching and transistor measuring!

Since then, I've etched 11 layouts from tonepad, ggg, and geo.

I thought I'd make a rangemaster now.  On perfboard.  Now, hearing about all these frustrations, I really can't wait to see how it turns out!  Definately going to socket that transistor now!   

[foxfire]

I've never tried perf, but I will for my next project. I actually can't wait to try it... looks like challenging fun to me.

Any other tips for someone who's trying it for the 1st time? I'm a very patient person when I make my pedals so I will take my time, and I plan on doing something like pushtones pic only I'll do it with a sharpie instead... printer is on the frits.

well you're already halfway there if you're as patient as you say you are. sometimes it can be a bit hard to see if your solder is touching the pad next to it so i like to keep alcohol and an old tooth brush near by to clean the flux. oh and save your clippings for making traces. i can't think of anything else really. i've done a few 3 and or 4 transistor pedals on perf without any problems. i thought perf was more common than this?

[ItZaLLgOOd]

What project are you trying to do?  Start simple and work your way up.  I built 2 Little Gems for my first perf projects with no problems.