1uf Elec Vs 1uf Metal film

[audioguy]

So Im reading Wampcats Mod book and he really preaches swapping out 1uf electros for 1uf metal film (Digikey PN: P4548-ND) so I was wondering what the folks here thought.
Would it benefit me to go back and swap them in my builds that used the electro 1uf- Dr. Boogie, BMP, Reboote 2.5, and TS808?

Thanks!

Audioguy

[96ecss]

Hi,

Only your ears can tell you what's right. I've done alot of mods on different pedals and I haven't always agreed with other peoples opinions on what sounds better. Try swapping them out one at a time and see what you like better.

Dave

[markm]

I agree with Dave.
Sometimes "high quality" or "high fidelity" doesn't mean "Great Tone" or "better".
For example; LM741 op amp.

[audioguy]

understood....

Anyone else???

[railhead]

Trying them out is the best answer -- and that's why I socket most components when I'm building something. Once I have things sounding the way i want, then I bypass the sockets.

Mouser has great single strand sockets that work great for just about everything.

[Ronsonic]

Of the usual measured characteristics, the major difference between the two is ESR (equivalent series resistance). All capacitors are imperfect and in addition to the capacitive reactance there is a resistance in series with the capacitance. Typical values are on the order of  20+ Ohms for the electrolytic and well under 1 Ohm for the film. This is relatively minor but measurable and IME audible. Tantalums fall in between.

To my ear both Tants and Film are good where you want clarity and/or need a precise filter value and are not interested in modeling the circuit to compensate for ESR (this applies most to things like crossovers and other low Z ckts). Tants should only be used with a voltage differential on them. Films don't have that requirement. In general I prefer either to a conventional electrolytic in the smaller values. I've seen mass market Asian production using lytics as small as .22u and think them an abomination that exist only for their cheapness.

One side effect of the improved performance of film and tants is that you can often use a smaller value as a coupling cap without hurting bass response. Just as a quick cheap tweak you can often take a pedal or design and replace output or coupling caps going from say a 4.7u or 10u with a 1, 2.2 or 4.7u Tant for a more interesting sound.

Anyway, to me these are just one more tool in the shed. My tastes don't generally run to lo fi, so your mileage will vary. I say season to taste.

Ron

[JHS]

1uF is 1uF, but for audio pupose an electrolytic has a very bad frequency curve, more or less depending on type and company electrolytics won't transmit the highs and bass frequencies very good. While they act like a bandpass filter, changing against a MF will give more high and lows, that doesn't mean better tone. There can be even audible defrencies if you try MF caps from different brands, socketing the caps, listening and try and error is the only way to find out what sounds good or bad in a FX- or audio circuit.

JHS

[audioguy]

Good info, thanks.... one more question: Are the electros more prone to noise?

[markm]

This could easily turn into a "best overdrive" thread!
Many have expressed opinions but the actual FACT that remains is this is all a matter of taste and little else.
Some of the Legendary MOJO-Tone sounding effects contained electros and tants in the signal path, ceramic caps, etc.
Also, some of the most legendary designers specifically chose tants to use in the signal path.......and inturn,\
Created some of the most desirable sounds in music history!
So, although some facts can be applied to the what's best argument, there's alot of MOJO crap kicking about here as well.

[Gus]

No mojo.  There is science behind that corresponds to sound with caps.  signal level, voltages ................................................................................
sometimes things matter sometimes not so much

Funny I have posted  over the years what I measured and built circuits to test with some caps

People need to google,ask etc there is a bunch of stuff on caps on the web and test things themselfs. 

[markm]

No mojo.  There is science behind that corresponds to sound with caps.  signal level, voltages ................................................................................
sometimes things matter sometimes not so much

Funny I have posted  over the years what I measured and built circuits to test with some caps

People need to google,ask etc there is a bunch of stuff on caps on the web and test things themselfs. 

That's not my point Gus.
I know there are differences but, alot of this comes down to what someone thinks sounds good, not how it looks on a scope.
Many get fooled into thinking that they should use Mylar Caps and Metal Film resistors EVERYWHERE to make everyone of their builds sound good and, this is really complete utter B/S.
It sounds like a Boutique sales pitch! 

[audioguy]

I'll experiment and see what I get... My main point was that Brian W. really pushes swapping the electros out on most of his mods... so I just wanted to see if anyone had some before and after stories.

I appreciate everyones time!

[Gus]

Who is Brian W.?

[TELEFUNKON]

Brian?

[audioguy]

Brian Wampler the author of "How To Modify Effect Pedals, for MAXIMUM TONE!" He posts here as Wampcat... or something like this.

[wampcat1]

Brian Wampler the author of "How To Modify Effect Pedals, for MAXIMUM TONE!" He posts here as Wampcat... or something like this.

well, wampcat1 to be exact...

For the benefit of everybody, I'll clarify a bit... I don't necessarily think that film caps are ALWAYS better in EVERY situation in EVERY location, however I think that given the choice I'd always pick a film cap over electrolytic. The tolerance is better, they feel "cleaner" to me for lack of a better term. In certain locations (compressors and chorus pedals for example) it seems that the pedals are always a little less noisy when cheap caps are replaced with higher quality film caps in the signal path.

I don't necessarily want to snub my nose at electrolytics - I DO use them in some locations in some circuits.

Hope that helps to clarify a little.

bw

[markm]

The only thing I can say is, sometimes "cleaner", or "more bass/more treble" or HI-FI sounding is really not a good thing in a given circuit.
Who here can tell the difference between a Ceramic, Metal Film, Electro, or a Tantalum Input cap or Output Cap in any given effect
in a Live Band situation in the middle of a smokey club on a Saturday night gig at 10:38 pm? 

[wampcat1]

The only thing I can say is, sometimes "cleaner", or "more bass/more treble" or HI-FI sounding is really not a good thing in a given circuit.
Who here can tell the difference between a Ceramic, Metal Film, Electro, or a Tantalum Input cap or Output Cap in any given effect
in a Live Band situation in the middle of a smokey club on a Saturday night gig at 10:38 pm? 

unless someone is using in-ears and has a seperate mix with tons of guitar I doubt anyone could tell. For that matter, I doubt anyone could tell the difference between a ts9-808 (vintage of course) and a arion tubulator under the same conditions. However, if it makes a difference to a person, they are probably more into the hobby of trying to find that elusive tone rather than your average guitar player slugging it in a bar somewhere... there's a ton of road guys I know that can't tell the difference between a big muff and egg mcmuffin but they just want to play guitar.

bw

[soulsonic]

I tell what DOES matter in that smokey club on a Saturday night; when that stupid Tantalum coupling cap starts going intermittent and dying like they ALWAYS do. The number one reason to avoid tants more than anything else is their dismal failure rate..... and in my opinion they sound like junk garbage when used for coupling.
When it comes to large-value coupling caps, for me, it's either film or non-polar/bi-polar electro ONLY. They're so cheap, why even bother messing with anything else? And I think it's a grievous sin to ever use a polarized cap for coupling, unless it's two together back-to-back because you didn't have a bipolar available. I mean c'mon.... it's not like cost is any kind of an issue here.

[brett]

Small electros may dry out.  That's a fact. A dry cap will mess up your tone.

Concerning the various other contentions about caps...  It MAY be just a coincidence that they (and many similar claims) are described in terms like "tight", "balanced", "open", and "defined". But I don't really think so.