Univox Super Fuzz octave vs. Ibanez Standard Fuzz octave

[g3rmanium]

Ok, I have both a Super Fuzz and a Standard Fuzz. The Standard Fuzz does a really good octave, the Super-Fuzz does not.

From the schematics (Super Fuzz, Standard Fuzz), the only really significant thing I see is the input section. The rest looks pretty much the same.

So, where's the superior octave of the Standard Fuzz coming from?

Shameless plug



In case you have never heard them, here are some clips.

• Univox Super Fuzz sound clip
• Ibanez Standard Fuzz sound clip

[RDV]

This is the octave sound from my Superfuzz clone with 2N2222 trannies.

RDV

[Mark Hammer]

Achieving a strong octave-up depends on the extent to which the two complementary signals are matched.  It's like trying to recognize identical twins when one has long hair and the other is bald with glasses and very different clothing; if you look VERY closely you will see the resemblance, but unless they make it easy, you might miss it.  The same is true of octave-up fuzzes.  The two complementary signals need to be very close in level when combined or else the octave just doesn't emerge from all that noise.

Unfortunately, there are several components between the phase splitter (the transistor with equal-value emitter and collector resistors) and the transistor pair where the two halves are combined, plus the matching of those transistors, that can often result in unequal signal levels.  Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't.  One way that Univox attempted to address that was by including a trimpot for balancing complementary signal levels.  Of course that only addresses the signals reaching the transistor pair, and does not address the matching of the transistors themselves.

Really and truly, the essential aspects of the two designs (Superfuzz and Standard Fuzz) are identical.  What will differentiate them is the assorted actual component values within their stated tolerances.  Somewhere out there in an alternate universe (or maybe in our own) is someone with the same two pedals, but the Superfuzz delivers better octaving.  Certainly, if the soundfile is to be believed (and I believe it) Ricky Vance's pedal provides MUCH better octaving than mine does.  It happens.

[RDV]

I almost sent that pedal to Germany with "The Wholigans"(who tribute band). Almost. I didn't do it though because I don't really want it to end up smashed to bits!

RDV

[g3rmanium]

This is the octave sound from my Superfuzz clone with 2N2222 trannies.

Sounds great. Really great. What mode did you use? The mid-less one?

[g3rmanium]

One way that Univox attempted to address that was by including a trimpot for balancing complementary signal levels.  Of course that only addresses the signals reaching the transistor pair, and does not address the matching of the transistors themselves.

Oh, I have to see what that one does in my pedal. Thanks for tip, didn't even notice it when I put in the battery.

Somewhere out there in an alternate universe (or maybe in our own) is someone with the same two pedals, but the Superfuzz delivers better octaving.  Certainly, if the soundfile is to be believed (and I believe it) Ricky Vance's pedal provides MUCH better octaving than mine does.  It happens.

Yep, mine simply doesn't do much octave but the Standard Fuzz does.

[RDV]

This is the octave sound from my Superfuzz clone with 2N2222 trannies.

Sounds great. Really great. What mode did you use? The mid-less one?

Thanks.

That's the 'normal' mode. The scooped sound has less octave(though it's still there).

Here's a 'scooped' sample.

RDV

[RDV]

Here's one where I try to play with a blues backing track with marginal results.

All these samples go: guitar - superfuzz - Ibanez ADL - computer.

RDV

[g3rmanium]

I found the trim pot in the mean time and really get a better octave now. 

Thanks to Mark!

[Sir H C]

My assumption has been that it was cheaper for Univox to put a trim pot in than to try to match transistors for this circuit.  Glad you are getting a better octave.

[g3rmanium]

My assumption has been that it was cheaper for Univox to put a trim pot in than to try to match transistors for this circuit.  Glad you are getting a better octave.

So Ibanez were even cheaper than Univox?

Or maybe they actually matched the transistors?

[Mark Hammer]

My assumption has been that it was cheaper for Univox to put a trim pot in than to try to match transistors for this circuit.  Glad you are getting a better octave.

So Ibanez were even cheaper than Univox?

Or maybe they actually matched the transistors?

NEVER mistake what you hear from one example of a given model of vintage pedal with what you hear from any other example of that same type of pedal until you get the opportunity to hear multiple examples of that pedal.  You might have a very representative Ibanez Standard Fuzz.....or maybe not.  You won't know until you get more than one or two of them in front of you.

The thing about many of these old discrete fuzz pedals is that there are all these tolerances in all those parts.  Distortions in particular are sensitive to every little bit of bandwidth differences or small differences in gain here and there.  VERY easy for two of any pedal type to sound a little different from each other in hard-to-pin-down but still audible ways.  They will still have the same "personality" but some will have something a little extra that draws you to them.

[foxfire]

My assumption has been that it was cheaper for Univox to put a trim pot in than to try to match transistors for this circuit.  Glad you are getting a better octave.

So Ibanez were even cheaper than Univox?

Or maybe they actually matched the transistors?

NEVER mistake what you hear from one example of a given model of vintage pedal with what you hear from any other example of that same type of pedal until you get the opportunity to hear multiple examples of that pedal.  You might have a very representative Ibanez Standard Fuzz.....or maybe not.  You won't know until you get more than one or two of them in front of you.

The thing about many of these old discrete fuzz pedals is that there are all these tolerances in all those parts.  Distortions in particular are sensitive to every little bit of bandwidth differences or small differences in gain here and there.  VERY easy for two of any pedal type to sound a little different from each other in hard-to-pin-down but still audible ways.  They will still have the same "personality" but some will have something a little extra that draws you to them.

which is probably why we all make/have so many fuzz boxes.

[Mark Hammer]

....and why there are so many myths about them, as well as so many disappointments.

[foxfire]

ahh, the magic of adding a bit of mystery to the math of electronics.

[Wounded Paw]

Where would I add that trimpot to balance the signals if I were to make one myself?

[Mark Hammer]

The octaving portion involves two transistors with a 22k resistor from base to ground.  Replace the 22k resistor on each of them with a 10k resistor.  Instead of connecting each of those resistors to ground, connect each one to an outside lug of a 25k trimpot and then connect the trimpot's wiper to ground.  At its midpoint, the trimpot will provide (in conjunction with the 10k fixed resistors) a 22.5k path to ground.  Tweaking it a little bit one way or the other will nail a perfect balance.  If you can find some 20k fixed resistors, use them and a 5k trimpot.  That will make for easier tweaking.