Which Fuzz Does This?

[polaris26]

I have built a tone bender with Ge transistors and a fuzz face but I can't seem to get the fuzz tone I am looking for.  I am trying to get a tone where the timbre of the tone changes as the guitar naturally decays.  I was trying to think of some examples (maybe "Insense and Peppermints" by the Strawberry Alarm Clock).  Is this a function of the circuit topology itself, the types of devices used, the biasing/selection of those devices, or a combination of those elements?  Any insights greatly appreciated.

Dave

[8mileshigh]

Hey Dave,   

I love the guitar tone in Insense and Peppermints.   My Germanium Fuzzrite clone does this tone very nicely, much better than the silicon version.  Dragonfly has a layout for it in his gallery which works but I had to fiddle with the bias of Q2 to get it to scream.  Let us know who your persuit goes.

Chris

[tcobretti]

You might want to breadboard these pedals to find one you like:

[Rodgre]

The trick to that "Incense..." tone is to actually not have too much gain. I've been able to get that tone with other fuzzes, easier with octave-fuzzes like a Tone Machine, but with the gain pretty low. You don't get at much sustain, but that's how you get that "neeeeee-errrrrrrr" tone as it decays.

There's some of that tone in a circuit like Tim Escobedo's Jawari. I would start with an octavefuzz or really nasty gnarly fuzz circuit and not look for a lot of gain. Candidates other than above circuit: Kay Fuzz, Maestro Fuzz, many many Superfuzz variants, and Tone Machine.

Also, use a guitar with low-gain single coil pickups.

Roger

[tiges_ tendres]

I've wanted to ask the same question about a million different fuzz sounds.  I have now officially given up as I have learned that the fuzz sound from the song "Have you seen her?" was just a strat into a marshall combo with some mixing board eq.  Gone are my dreams of finding that fuzz!  (I'm still holding out for that 'spirit in the sky' sound, though)

However!  I believe that band (strawberry alarm clock, right?) had a Mosrite endorsement, so the fuzzrite would be a great place to start.

[soulsonic]

Hey, that comparison chart is great! Maybe I need to build some kind of gross tweak-o-rama sort of fuzz thing that lets you switch between the different combinations.....

[tcobretti]

I'm glad you like the chart.  A while back Gottfried gave me a couple more schems to add to it, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.  There is a similar chart for different wahs in my gallery.

[Pedal love]

I would go with the germanium fuzzrite.

[8mileshigh]

Travis,

That comparison chart is WAY cool !  Thanks for sharing !

Chris

[polaris26]

Travis - great reference there - must have taken some time and effort to compile that info - much appreciated! 

What is so frustrating trying to copy old effects is the way the factory changed parts mid-stream so it's hard to even know which version it is that you're trying to copy.  I looked up info on the Fuzz Rite and saw that there were at least three different versions - two silicon and one with Germanium.   

What sort of device gain are we looking for on this pedal?  I have some medium to low gain Ge transistors and an OC44 but that is slated for the rangemaster clone.
   
Those 60's fuzz sounds were, IMHO, much more interesting than the later, smoother tones.  Another example that came to mind is the fuzz guitar from the original studio soundtrack album for the musical "Jesus Christ Superstar".  Some wicked fuzz tones there - also a lot of the Doors songs come to mind .

I guess those old fuzz boxes were temperamental - you had to have a selected example, the right room temperature, the right phase of the moon, etc.  But I will try the circuit from the chart - should be interesting to hear what I can get out of it!

thanks again,
Dave

[Rodgre]

Another thing to keep in mind when trying to replicate the fuzz sounds from 60's records is that flatwound strings were possibly used. You probably won't believe it until you hear it for yourself, but it makes a big difference. Low gain single coil pickups, flatwound strings and a simple cheesy fuzz.

Roger

[tcobretti]

I'm glad you guys like the chart.  It occurred to me that many of those pedals were similar, so I thought it'd be interesting to compare them.  I made this chart, but then never followed thru with my plan to breadboard and compare the different varieties of 60s fuzz.

I know what you are saying about the different versions of the same pedal; that's one of the benefits of the chart.  It allows you to see the range of values that will work for a specific component.

About the transistors, I always socket and play around until I am happy.  As far as I am concerned that is part of the fun.  If memory serves, you'll get into troubles with oscillation if you use really high gain transistors, but all med and most low are interesting to try.

I also love nasty early fuzzes; I have a hard time getting into the later fuzzes.  The FF can be great, but I have yet to hear any BMP that I would keep on my pedal board. 

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

  I am trying to get a tone where the timbre of the tone changes as the guitar naturally decays. 

You know, an envelope follower (that is, filter swept by the envelope of the signal) might do this.
The problem is, you need to use the envelope of the signal BEFORE it gets to the fuzz, and you need to filter the signal AFTER it leaves the fuzz.
But, most of the standard envelope followers can be modded to do this.
I'm not saying it would work as you want right out of the box, but it would be my starting point.

On the other hand, the comment about fuzz circuits with low gain doing better at producing the sound in question implies that the problem with the usual fuzzes is that they just 'square up' the signal by maximally overdriving the transistors. Which implies that a bunch of distortion circuits in series would be promising.

[jrc4558]

The trick to that "Incense..." tone is to actually not have too much gain. I've been able to get that tone with other fuzzes, easier with octave-fuzzes like a Tone Machine, but with the gain pretty low. You don't get at much sustain, but that's how you get that "neeeeee-errrrrrrr" tone as it decays.

There's some of that tone in a circuit like Tim Escobedo's Jawari. I would start with an octavefuzz or really nasty gnarly fuzz circuit and not look for a lot of gain. Candidates other than above circuit: Kay Fuzz, Maestro Fuzz, many many Superfuzz variants, and Tone Machine.

Also, use a guitar with low-gain single coil pickups.

Roger

Amen, brother! Single coils, even with volume backed up a bit.

[polaris26]

I understand that playing around with various transistor combinations might be fun and even educational, but is it ever worth trying to hunt down the original parts, just to make sure the tone would be as 'authentic' as possible?  For example, in the Japanese germanium-version Fuzz Rite schematic, it lists Q1 as a 2N2613 and Q2 as 2N408, both by RCA.  Would hunting down these parts be worth the time/expense, or just get some similar more readily-available parts and plug-n-play until you get something you like?  How do you have an idea of what hfe's to look for? 

Dave

[tcobretti]

I don't think it is worth hunting down vintage Si transistors. 

I don't have specific HFE numbers in mind, but I would think 200-500 is probly the range you want.  However, this is all personal preference.

[8mileshigh]

Dave,

I used some NOS Raytheon Ge's in the 160 hfe range that I bought off some guy on Ebay.  They sound pretty damned good !  I'd try any higher gain transistors and see how it works out.  I'll let you know what I had to tweak to dial in the sound, it's too early in the moring. I'll try and get some more info when I get back from NY. 

Chris

[Mark Hammer]

The Shin-Ei FY-2 does a pretty decent job at this sound, and the 2SC536 transistors are still widely available.  If you reduce the built-in scoop a bit, it increases the "throatiness" of the resulting tone (and volume level).

[polaris26]

Inspired by all this talk of the Fuzz Rite, I decided to cobble it together with a pair of Ge transistors I think I originally bought from Smallbear as a Fuzz Face pair.  Q1 is a 2N404A and the other one I'm not sure of - it is stamped '5N  10  PD' on the top. 

In any case, this circuit is getting me the closest to that sound I was looking for all along!  I am using it with my Eastwood P90 Special on the neck p/u.  The note decays and the timbre changes in a subtle but definite way, and it's amazing how much sustain there is.   

Q1 collector is at -6.2volts,  Q2 collector is at -.54 Volts, using a positive ground supply (PNP circuit).  I tried increasing the input and coupling caps and it makes the fuzz splattier - definitely a cool effect.  My sincerest thanks to everyone for turning me on to this circuit!

Dave

[Pedal love]

You're most welcome!