So I tried using glossy paper instead of PNP blue today

[Papa_lazerous]

I had a complex layout that needs etching and even though I got plenty of PNP Blue I figured this would be the perfect project to prove out the glossy paper method for toner transfer onto the board.  I found a nice add in a magazine that was an almost white page, ironed it on and found it was actually easier to iron on. soaked it and after getting the paper off I had a perfect transfer.  Needless to say I wont be buying pnp blue anymore.  I cant believe how cheap and easy it is.  why oh why did I not try this before lol

[BubbaKahuna]

yeah, I use some old band flyers and they work great. I've had some people ask me 'professionally etched?" after seeing my boards.
That always kills me because I do it so fast & cheap it's unreal. 

[tranceracer]

The hardest thing for me with using magazine paper is finding a white blank space for my traces!   

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Does it really make a difference whether the magazine page is printed on? (apart from convenience).

[ambulancevoice]

where do i find a method for this??

[g.]

here's one
http://steampunkworkshop.com/altoid-etch.shtml

[ambulancevoice]

im a bit lost, so you do the transfer (i understand that bit) and then what??? HCl?

[darron]

Does it really make a difference whether the magazine page is printed on? (apart from convenience).

i haven't had any success with this method, but i wasn't using white paper either. i assumed that it wouldn't make a difference... after hearing another good report, i might give it another shot (:

maybe ill even do it tonight!

thanks for the report. ill check that link out now.

[Dave_B]

I've had success using a densely printed ad.  It doesn't need to be white.

[edit for omitted word]

[darron]

i just gave the process another shot. my detailed traces blured together. also, peeling away the paper very carefully after soaking rubbed off some of the toner. any ideas? i was really excited for a moment when it looked like it was working. does it need to be a really glossy page or can u just use the glossy cover off a weekly/monthly women's mag?

[Mark Hammer]

Okay....one....more...time.

The reason why both PnP and glossy paper from a package or a magazine can work is because in each instance there is a substrate and a detachable coating to which toner can bond.  In the case of PnP, the substrate is an acetate sheet, and the blue layer is the coating.  In the case of photo paper and glossy magazines, the substrate is....well....paper, and the glossy coating is the detachable layer.  The toner bonds to the detachable layer but also bonds/fuses to the copper on the board when heated and pressed.  Happily for us, the bond it has when fused with the copper is stronger than the bond the detachable layer has with the substrate, so the detachable layer...detaches.

Here is where we begin to separate the different media.  PnP detaches cleanly.  This is partly because it is engineered for this purpose, and partly because the coating is very very fine-grained and partly because the substrate is smooth and non-fibrous (i.e., not made of little tiny particles squished together...like paper).  Glossy paper detaches reasonably well, but in a semi-ragged manner.  The paper is nice and stiff so when you lift the paper it pretty much all comes off (assuming it is decent paper and you've let it cool).  However, because the resolution of the coating is not quite as fine as the blue on PnP, and because the substrate is fibrous, it detaches in a rough way.  Folks with long memories who used to use fanfold paper on their dot-matrix printer can probably remember the difference between "clean-edge" paper and "regular" paper when you tried to tear it off the perforated strips at the side.  Same difference.

Shiny magazine paperhas the same basic properties as photo paper except that it is generally much thinner stock.  As a result, one should not expect to be able to pry the corner up after ironing and lift the entire sheet off the board, leaving only the sections with toner behind.  Of course, as people have noted, soaking the board in water will soften those sections that have "come along for the ride" and since they have no toner to stick them to the copper, they will come off the board easily leaving only the tonered portions behind.  Neither the copper, nor the toner "care" about whether there is ink underneath the toner.  The toner sticks to the coating, and it also sticks to the copper and that's all that matters.  As long as the parts without toner can be removed by some nondestructive means, you'll have a resist pattern laid down.

The parts that worry me a little (and which is why I shall stick to photo paper for the moment) are that: a) having a shiny coating on both sides of the paper puts the smooth surface of the iron at risk for getting gunked up and impeding smooth ironing motions, and b) the process of getting the last bits of paper off the board can inadvertently result in "finger juice" getting on the bare parts of board, or contaminants and oxidants from the local water supply making the bare surface less receptive to etchant.  To be fair, all these concerns can be overcome with extra care, some gloves, some distilled water, and regular cleaning of the iron, but they remain a nuisance which doesn't arise using PnP or photopaper.

[darron]

i'll give wax paper a shot tomorrow. perhaps wax paper stuck to regular paper. bees make wax.

[John Lyons]

Wax paper will not work. You'll end up with a greasy waxy mess.

Some papers that work are:

Sticker backing sheets. Slick waxy looking (although it's not wax)
Photo paper. (inkjet) Staples "photo basic gloss" etc etc. My choice.
Glossy magazine pages. Clay coated, most will work.
Regular office paper (I can't see this working well)
PNP blue The best for the job but it's $$$

Keep in mind that all of these depend on the printer or copier.
Good thick toner deposit = good transfer.
The thicker the paper the more heat and pressure you need.
Always try a few heat settings and pressures before you give up.
Experiment!

John

[Dave_B]

The parts that worry me a little (and which is why I shall stick to photo paper for the moment) are that: a) having a shiny coating on both sides of the paper puts the smooth surface of the iron at risk for getting gunked up and impeding smooth ironing motions

Mark, I always layer a piece of 'regular' copy paper over the Women's Day sheet.  That should avoid the problem.  John, I'm guessing the office paper won't work because of the way the ink fuses to it compared to glossy-finished paper.

Also, it's probably been mentioned, but I attach the magazine print to the copy paper with Post-It notes along the leading edge before sending it through the printer.

[Mark Hammer]

Another caveat that I forgot to add. 

One of the perennial problems of people beginning with toner transfer, and even some who've been at it for awhile, is "How do I know when the entire pattern has adhered to the copper?".  One of the advantages that PnP has over photpaper is that it is fairly thin, such that when you've ironed the sheet to the copper board, the parts with toner on them stay raised while the nontoner/blue parts sag under heat such that you can eventually see the "bas relief" outline of the pattern, and when you can see all of it that tells you you're done.

In the case of photopaper, since it is thicker and less "saggy" you won't get that raised-vs-sagged outline to work with.  What you do get is a kind of "rubbing" outline similar to what some people do with a sheet of paper laid over a tombstone.  When you can see the entire pattern as a kind of ghost on the back of the paper, then it is generally transferred (though wait until cool before peeling).

In the case of glossy magazine paper, I have no idea.  Since it is thinner than photo paper, you might get to use sag as an indicator, but my gut sense is that any visual indicators will be hard to detect unless the back surface of the sheet used is a simple light uncluttered image (e.g., sky, desert, etc).  Anything too complicated and the complexity will mask the almost imperceptible ridges you should see when the toner is properly adhered to the copper.  So pick your pics carefully such that you are in a favourable position to be able to tell when the layout is completely transferred to the copper.

[Ry]

I'm late to this conversation and wanted to clarify one thing.  Does the inkjet photo paper actually work with an inkjet printer?  I only ask because I know that injet ink doesn't work with PnP.

[Mark Hammer]

What gets called "inkjet" or laser paper has to do with its propensity for wet ink bleeding outwards from the point where it lands on the paper, and not on whether toner will stick to it or not.  You can safely stick inkjet photo paper into a laser printer or photocopier, stick toner on it and iron it onto a copper board.  Note, however, that because it needs to be "special" to avoid having the wet ink bleed outwards, inkjet paper tends to be more expensive than laser paper directed at the same function.  If that cost is not prohibitive for you, then march boldly forward with it.

PLEASE please please note, however, that I've come across various inexpensive photopapers where the glossy emulsion was laid down on both sides (so that the user doesn't have to pay attention to which side goes "up", I suppose).  That's not a problem when the paper goes through the printer, but it CAN be a problem when you put your iron on it.  Messy.  try to make sure the emulsion or gloss is on only ONE side of the paper.

[greigoroth]

here's one
http://steampunkworkshop.com/altoid-etch.shtml

Kinda OT but steampunk do some really cool gear, if anyone is in the need for procrastination fuel there is cool stuff there!

[Ry]

Thanks for the clarification, Mark.  I guess I thought that the ability for the transfer to work or not was related more to the properties of the ink...whether it was inkjet or laser/copier...I was under the possibly mistaken impression that inkjet ink would not transfer well.  Now my understanding is that it has more to do with the properties of the paper to 'contain' the ink rather than the ink to transfer.

Thanks!

[GREEN FUZ]

You were correct in your initial impression that inkjet wasn`t suitable. Due to its composition, the type of ink used is of no use for this purpose. It must be laser or photocopy toner, however, either types of paper are suitable. I`ve had some success with laser prints on photo picture paper.