Will the real Mosrite Fuzzrite please stand up

[Wild Zebra]

  Hello I would like to breadboard this circuit, but there are many schems available.  I don't neccesarilly need the original, but a verified working schem would be nice.  I saw the orphem fuzz looked and sounded like a nice alternative.  I have to poke around for a schem unless someone can point me sooner.  Just looking for the buzzy fuzz not that creamy fuzz.  I made a shin ei, but unfortunately it's on loan.  Any opinions on the germanium vs silicone versions?

[caress]

i've made this one and it works very well.  really LOUD and gnarly

http://eu11.stripper.jp/pulcino/blog/images/fuzzrite.gif

[Wild Zebra]

thanks I saw that schem I'll have to try it.

[frankclarke]

There is a guy who says all the schems are wrong and the one he sells on EBay is right. Perhaps someone can verify from the original unit, just out of morbid curiosity.

[8mileshigh]

I built the Ge vero version in Dragonfly's gallery which I believe is similar to the above schem.  To my ears,it's the real deal,  a psychedelic flash back.  On another note, the sound clips for the clone sold on Ebay make me think that the seller has cloned a bad/very splatty sounding Fuzzrite.  Maybe I've been tweaking my Fuzzrites to sound like something else over the years, I don't know. 

Chris

[DougH]

Yeah, you better check with the Ebay dude and get your story straight first...

[8mileshigh]

I bought a clone on Ebay once what was built with the 470K collector resistors from the schems floating around the net and I was suprised by how lousy it sounded.  Not being pleased with the total lack of sustain it produced, I promptly build one from Dragonfly's layout which uses 10K collector resistors and this brought the sustain and fuzz up to where it should be (or where it was pleasing to my ears) 

But, yeah maybe I'll ask Ashbass what schem he used and maybe refresh my memory at the Tone Frenzy site to hear the real thing again before somebody gets mad at me 

What I can say for sure though, the Ge version I built simply breathes fire and sustains forever, it's wonderful.  I don't like the Si version much.

Chris

[soulsonic]

But, yeah maybe I'll ask Ashbass what schem he used and maybe refresh my memory at the Tone Frenzy site to hear the real thing again before somebody gets mad at me 

Good luck with that. He makes a big deal about it being a super mojo secret and he'll never tell anyone the schematic. He claims he personally reversed the perfect Fuzzrite and what he sells is an exact copy of that and everyone else's is totally wrong, blah, blah, blah... And of course he covers the inside of his with this hideous white goop so you'll never be able to trace it out for yourself. I wouldn't expect him to be very helpful......

[brett]

Hi
after building and experimenting with this (and consistent with the schematic), it is obvious that the hFE of the BJTs is of great importance.  The hFE must be much, much lower than modern Si devices (which is probably part of why old Ge devices sound so good).  My Fuzzrite has low hFE Si devices and sounds fairly good IMO.  I used BD139s with hFE = 150.  It would be interesting to try Si devices with hFE around 100 (TIPs/MJEs ??).
cheers

[Wild Zebra]

Hi, brett which schem did you use?

[jessetrbo]

I'd like to reference Chris' post as it brings up an interesting point: 

"On another note, the sound clips for the clone sold on eBay make me think that the seller has cloned a bad/very splatty sounding Fuzzrite.  Maybe I've been tweaking my Fuzzrites to sound like something else over the years, I don't know. "

How much sustain is it supposed to have?  Maybe the original would not be very satisfying, too.  I know there's a great deal of variation in mass produced pedals due to  tolerance issues, biasing,etc... but is there a "classic" example that people immediately think of when this pedal comes up?  From searching the forum and my record collection, I first think of the Music Machine... the Seeds... Iron Butterfly(?)  I thought that the Ash Bass sound samples sounded pretty cool. 

It seems to be a pedal that has had a mixed reputation on the forum (as for my recollection), but I wonder if part of the reason is that it's got such a specific 'one trick pony' kind of sound.   I can't wait to get home and take a crack at it...

Jesse Trbovich

[Mark Hammer]

The Ash Bass samples sound...okay.  Certainly replicates what is claimed to be an "authentic" Fuzz-Rite (keep in mind the 1960's were not known for consistency of build, and Ge transistors are not known for consistency of performance/specs).  Not the highest quality samples, though, and may sound different through an amp (they sound like they were recorded by someone with the Fuzz-Rite plugged into their soundcard, and the guitar on their lap directly in front of the computer).  I suspect that many or any of the variants listed in the Orpheum table (Orpheum, Fuzzrite, FY-2, et al) could be made to sound like that with a tweak here and there.  I also suspect that one's own guitar would not sound like the samples at all, unless it met the same conditions as those used in the samples.  Just pushing the circuit a little harder or softer evokes different tones.  If there are vintage recorded sounds you like, and wish to replicate, do keep in mind that many of those vintage tones came from feeding the stompboxes very different signals than we feed them now, and those signals were often as big a part of the sound (if not bigger sometimes) than whether they used this germanium transistor or that type of cap.  Stiff, near-dead La Bella or Black Diamond strings on cheap bolt-on necks (where you can hear the truss rod rattling around inside) into cheap low-output single-coils on folded sheet-metal bridges with 100k volume pots sound just a tad different than a new .009-.042 set strung on a decent set-neck, with Duncan HBs and 500k pots.  At least part of the sputteriness of older fuzzes came from the manner in which the string quickly decayed below the clipping threshold.

OTOH, if you like that sound, Ash Bass is only asking $99, which is certainly cheaper than combing vintage sources for an original.  Not Danelectro prices, but not that bad.

[Wild Zebra]

Thanks y'all,  I have another question.  Is the fuzzrite the same pot set up as a Shin ei or the Orpheum? i.e. Volume/Tone or is it Volume/fuzz Amount?

Right know I'm leaning on the Orpheum because I know I have all the parts at home.  Not sure if I have the pot values for the fuzzrite on hand.  But I'm alittle worried I won't be able to control the fuzz amount.  I made a Shin ei., and it had that buzzy sound I'm looking for (Unfortunately I loaned it to someone who thought I gave it to him) but you can't turn down the fuzz amount.  I'm sure there may be a way to mod it to add a fuzz knob??

[Mark Hammer]

All of these fuzzes have two transistor stages and tap the output from the first stage and from the second stage (which is driven by the first stage).  In all instances, there is a control which adjusts how much signal makes it to the output from stage 1 or stage 2.  The Orpheum and Fuzzrite use a pan/blend type pot that simpkly adjusts the balance of the two stages feeding the volume pot.

The "real" FY-2 schematic ( http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_secf_sc.pdf ) uses a different arrangement wherein the first stage goes to the blend/mix wiper, rather than an outside lug.  After wiring up an original one way, and then the way shown for the Fuzzrite, I found the Fuzzrite method gave a wider range of fuzz sounds, without impairing the most extreme ones one teeny bit.  It still doesn't have a huge range of personalities, but at least it has a little more variation to offer.  Of course, when you consider the use of a 50k blend/mix pot for the FY-2, vs 1M for the Orpheum and 350k for the Fuzzrite, it's small wonder that the FY-2 shows such little variation between extremes of the Fuzz control.  I should probably experiment with a 250k linear pot at home.  I suspect the use of the 50k pot was a choice made to be able to use the midscoop filter without sacrificing too much level.  Keep in mind that this particular era of fuzzes was not attempting to be the multi-control chameleons of today's vintage.  You picked a tone, and made it louder and softer.

You will note that the output cap after each stage (C3 and C5 above) is identical in this schematic, but different in the case of the FY-2/Companion (2n2 and 3n3), and also different in the case of the Orpheum (1n and 2n2).  Slightly different low-end response from each of the stages, and something a little different to blend together.  In the case of the Fuzzrite circuit shown (and the Orpheum), C5 and R6 form a highpass filter that starts to roll off around 3.4khz (a little higher if you can actually find a .002uf cap).  So the output is seeing less bottom end from the fuzz side (stage 2) than from the not-quite-so-fuzz side.

In the case of the FY-2, there is also a mid-scoop filter which is virtually identical to the one found on the Superfuzz and all of its' cousins.  That filter tends to bleed a lot of signal off, such that the FY-2 doesn't have the same maximum output level of the Fuzzrite or Orpheum.  Like the Superfuzz, when you remove/lift/bypass that scoop filter, you get a LOT of signal back, and you also get a throatier, less sinister-sounding tone (some have described the midscoop filtered tone as "sounding like death").  I certainly can't get the Ash Bass tones from a stock FY-2, even with the scoop cancelled, but I can get much closer when I boost the signal I feed it.

[Wild Zebra]

  Thanks much Mark.  Very informative, the schem you have posted is the germanium version correct?

[jessetrbo]

Mark, thanks for the schematic discussion/posts.  Your point is not lost on me:  equipment choices, from guitars to microphones, placement, etc.,  has a tremendous impact on the end result of of a recording.  I had the luxury (but at a price of course) to record at my friends studio for much of the summer.  I was just curious to see what people's reference points are when it comes to the Fuzzrite.  At the very least, it may bring up a record I haven't heard...  Maybe using the terms pretty cool was an overstatement.  It does seem obvious that it was a direct recording, but at that it's not completely charmless. 

Jesse

[Mark Hammer]

the schem you have posted is the germanium version correct?

Absolutely no idea.  It is just one of the many posted around.  Certainly the configuration is correct, even if the component values and transistor numbers aren't, since they all have that in common.

[brett]

Hi
I used this schematic, with minor changes (250k blend pot, 25k volume pot):
http://www.schematicheaven.com/effects/mosrite_fuzrite.pdf

Obviously, there are different fuzzrites.

This one is a bit too wild and raspy if modern, high hFE transistors are used.
cheers

[brett]

Hi
to slightly "tame" the tone of the circuit shown in the link above (the "Blender" Fuzzrite), try putting 47pF to 100pF caps across those 470k resistors connecting the collectors to the power supply.  At a guess, I'd say that 47pF = slightly mellowed, 100pF = greatly mellowed.
cheers

[brett]

Hi
I found a datasheet for the TZ-82 transistor (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/preview/3501964.html).
It indicates a hFE of 100 at 1mA.  So it's no surprise that devices with hFEs of 300 or more at 1 mA (eg 2N5088/89) produce way too much gain, and sound harsh in this circuit.
cheers