Tips On Selling Pedals

[s.r.v.]

Hi guys,
I know some of you here sell pedals, and I was wondering if you had any tips on getting a start on something like this. What I originally wanted to do was start with selling byoc pcb based pedals, modded to sell better. I was thinking of getting enclosures drilled and powder coated/screen printed by pedal parts plus. A run of 20 pedals would cost about $900 in parts i figured, and if i sold them at $100 a piece I'd have enough for my SG standard! I know they are not original designs, but it's the best i can do right now  . Do you guys have any words of wisdom regarding this idea? Will it fail? Will it work great? The pedals I am thinking of doing are either phasers, tubescreamers, or possibly the flanger once it comes out an pcbs go back on sale. Thanks guys!

[raulgrell]

It's an increadibly touchy subject. When I started out I had the same mindset: build clones, sell clones, make money... But, especially if you're selling pedals built off other people's work, I don't think it's ethical (I won't deal with legalities in this post, coz I honestly have no idea). The thing is, many of the people you could, in essence, take advantage of do this for a living and most likely would not appreciate THEIR work being used for YOUR profit, especially if they don't get credit for it...

What I suggest you do is, instead of buying byoc kits and selling them (which is questionable where legality and ethics is concerned), you buy the kits, build 'em for yourself, get used tot he techniques, study designs, look at different ways of accomplishing different effects, and start making your own designs, selling those instead.

Then comes the issue of: "What makes a design YOUR design"... unfortenately, no one can answer... there have been cases where 'new designs' were made by simply changing a few parts (look for MXR Distortion + / DOD OD250 based designs to see what I mean), others which are simply resistors turned into pots for more control (lots of Fuzz Face clones like this), and some which are basically existing designs stacked into two stages (BSIAB, Sweet 16, and Booster 2.5 are all basically stacked stages of Jack orman's Mini-Booster). The thing is, some of them sound different and I guess that's what makes them original designs. I know, for example, that all the mini-booster variants have their own nature of distortion, unique in their own little ways.

Some deserve to be called original designs... some don't... I guess that's up to you to decide.

Again, if I were you, I'd learn all you can and make your own ideas from scratch. By all means, start with existing ideas and build on them. Take simple circuit snippets and combine them in new ways, take elements from certain designs and put them in your pedal... but don't just rip them off and call them your own... I know it's the long way, and it could take months until you come up with something minimally worthy of your name in the credits. But here I am, I started early this summer, and I have now got 2 designs I'm proud to call my own. One is inspired by the Smash Drive designed by Aron Nelson (BTW Aron, this circuit is quite a gem, thank you!) using transformers and an adapted form of bootstrapping for a new sound... and the other a completely new idea that came to me in the middle of a maths lesson about solids of revolution (when you take a mathematical function and rotate it around the x axis to make a 3d shape) which gave me an idea for a new form of tone control integrated within the distortion element...

It's much more rewarding that way...

[s.r.v.]

well the legality is no problem. BYOC is fine with people selling their pedals, as long as you don't say its BYOC so the buyers wont go to them for tech support.

I added it up today, and to make what I wanted to would cost over $1000 in supplies  !! I do want to start designing my own pedals, but I'm not really sure how to start. I think after I make a few pedals, I will start to see some trends. Just go to study up on my schematics 

Thanks for the advice raul!

[BubbaKahuna]

My 2 cents:

If you even want to get into the ethical issues, first it's up to you to decide if there even is an ethical issue of selling pedals with commercially available parts in them.
For example - Harley Davidson Motorcycles had no ethical or legal issues with Eric Buell buying HD engines by the trainload and putting them in his sport bikes. They just started wondering what the hell anyone would be doing with that many new engines. Eventually HD bought him out, but Eric is still at the Buell plant designing new models with a big pile of HD stock in his pocket.

You're in no legal grey area if you use BYOC boards in anything you buy. BYOC isn't a favorite son around here, so you'll get widely differing opinions of his materials than you will on plenty of other DIY-type message boards. If anyone's at risk, it would be Keith at BYOC since he's the one selling the materials as his own designs.

All that aside, I'd think your biggest concern shouldn't be what anyone here thinks, but who you'll be targeting as your customers. Some guys get away with sloppy designs on their pedals and even some downright FUGly ones are out there as well. They are the 'freaks of nature' exceptions and most customers in any arena don't want to buy ugly pedals no matter how many cool extras you throw into the box. They want it to not only sound good, but look good as well. If you only have generic or cheezy designs, your market is only going to be to people with more money than time who just MUST have a pre-built BYOC pedal. Kind of seems limited to me, especially with prepainted boxes. I'd think you'd get a lot further in the boutique market with etched enclosures since most people don't even know how to do it very well (BTW, it's stupid easy).

Where will you sell them? Here? Good luck, plenty of the regulars here will automatically hate anything remotely BYOC and crow from the rooftops how your pedals are ripoffs of 'real' designs or crap because you dared to buy anything at all from BYOC. Whether they're right or not doesn't matter once the pool has been pooped in.

Ebay? Good luck there too. Anyone with a soldering iron can make BYOC pedals with 'mods to make them better'. Make sure you know you can get your $100 each for your pedals long before you buy those $900 in parts or you'll be selling $40 BYOC pedals just like everyone else on ebay does. Some fetch more, but it's pretty hit or miss. The ones that do get $100 usually look like a million bucks, not just a rattlecan paintjob and a stencil from PPP.

Your best bet might be to consign some at local music stores and see if you can generate a little buzz for yourself by gigging with all your own pedals. Assuming your band draws a lot of guitar gadget hounds.

Good luck, you're entering a very crowded market and it's very hard to look like more than just another Waldo in the crowd.

Cheers

[tcobretti]

BubbaK stated much of this while I was typing, but here it is:

Another thing to consider is that the market is glutted with 'boutique' pedals.  I think it is unlikely that you'll get $100 a pedal unless they are very, very pretty.  Think about the way Zvex decorates his pedals, then look at Analogman.com, then look at the Klon Centaur.  In many ways what sells on the boutique pedal market is the look of a pedal.  I'm not saying anything bad about these guys pedals; I'm just saying packaging is critical.

There are boutique guys that have done well selling highly polished crap.  I'd guess at least half of the boutique overdrive pedals made are tube screamer clones in nice packaging.

BTW, there are threads about this in the archive.  I remember a very well thought out post my Mark Hammer about having a business plan and stuff like that.

[s.r.v.]

thanks guys I have a lot to think about. I'll look for the archieved thread

[Jobet]

Have them subcontracted here in Asia. Here, a 3X3 PCB, etched and drilled only costs USD $0.60 . Make it $1.20 if you want green solder mask and component layouts. Add just alittle more if you want epoxy rather than paper phenolic.

And we're not talking industrial volumes, we're only talking about your average boutique throughput.

Then if you're serious about it, set up a small shop so you can paint stuff. Hire people. Let's see...minimum wage here is around USD$10 a day.

Then ship them out in batches to the US back to your home operations where you can have them drop-shipped to people who order your stuff. If you ship out in large enough batches, shipping will be negligible.

[theundeadelvis]

Make it look good. There are gobs of DIY builders selling pedals. Until you've made a name for yourself it's 90% what it looks like. Also, I recommend looking for a second job.

[caress]

word of mouth and selling to your friends, their friends and people you know who play in bands is the best way to start...
post fliers in practice spaces, privately owned music stores, community boards, coffee shops and places where musicians may tend to hang...
you'd probably want to post craigslist ads, make a myspace page, get a website, etc, etc...

get ready to probably lose some money...?  haha

i sell things here and there just to fund my own building and maybe to have a little money to go to the bar with every once in a while...  generally these are frankenstein-type pedals based off multiple pedals/schematics and bits that i throw in myself.  does that make it any more of my own design?

i think it really depends on what you're setting out to do.  selling tubescreamer clones is probably not going to get you noticed unless there's REALLY something different about them...  finding a niche and fulfilling a need there may get you further.  getting a pedal business off the ground probably has something to do with knowing the right person at the right time, luck, creative marketing, somewhat forward thinking (although you can get around this with marketing if you desire to... ) a good PLAN and a decent product. 


maybe?

[rogerinIowa]

Hey SRV

It sounds as though your motivation for selling pedals is maybe to get extra money to buy more gear, like that SG you mentioned? I think that we all can understand the desire to fund the Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

I think that some of us have sold pedals, or certainly at least thought about it. I sometimes follow this formula...I will build 3 of whatever design: I keep one, give one to my best friend, and sell one (if anyone is interested in it) to pay for the other 2. I'm lucky if it washes out in the end. It amazes me that when someone sees pedals that I have built they generally ask the same line of questioning: Do I have a website and how many do I sell? Why don't I get serious and go in to business? There is that natural assumption that it is all about commerce. It's definitely a consumer's society. For me this hobby is very rewarding, just not financially. I am not a very good business man and I suspect that most people are not either or there would be a lot more of them selling their wares. I think that the thing to keep in mind is that this hobby doesn't have to be about commerce to make it a valuable and viable way to spend your time (and money).

If you are intent on selling stuff, maybe you should build one and see how it goes on Ebay or whatever? See how much interest it generates before you spend that $900! No sense learning the hard way.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[s.r.v.]

yeah this is just to help my gear, I don't need to sell pedals to eat  . I'm thinking of doing a demo of a few and asking on forums what people think looks best. thanks man

[darron]

for what you want to do, i suppose the safest way would be to get the schematics and make up your own PCBs. do the designs yourself and etch them yourself. if you are making a bunch then it won't be THAT much work. then you can sell them as clones, or 'modeled from the historic (X) pedal'. make it obvious what you are doing i suppose.

[gez]

My 2 pence worth: don't invest a lot of money to make a little.  You're probably better off with a second job, or investing on the stock exchange. 

If you're serious about making a little from pedals, though, start small.  Ask friends if they want anything and offer to build at a competitive price.  Do the same with local musicians.  With the money you make, reinvest it.  You probably won't make much/anything for quite a while, but that's how most new businesses work: build your reputation.

I'm not saying don't do this, just that (as has been pointed out) it's a saturated market, the profit margins are small unless you're doing serious runs (and it would only be wise to do this with advance orders - see above about building a reputation), and it can be a lot of work for little return.

[mojotron]

Sorry this is a bit long; but for those that want to make a living at building pedals - looking at this as a business idea: I think it comes down to what you end up making per hour of effort in the end. You will find that if you scale out in a big way you can solve the initial (estimated) projected $/hour problem, but then you find that the degree to which you scale increases your investment in terms of cash. But, in the end you will run into the problem of selling a product into a saturated market; selling in a saturated market is driven by market share and the only thing you can do then is to reduce your margins to a point where the $/hour diminishes to a point where you are basically making pedals for people you don't know for free.

This is why you see Beringer selling pedals for $20-$50: They scale out, pay very little on the initial engineering costs (NRE costs), drive down the Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) by building in and using really cheap parts; take the diminished COGS and reduce the end price (MSRP) by that amount - this is all done to drive others out of the market and create market share. As long as they keep an eye on quality (QA) they will be able to maintain market share until they have established their place in the market and can then raise prices, get bigger margins (Gross Margins = MSRP - COGS), and then turn their market share into higher revenue. This is a very boring, but very smart approach.

I think a lot of people believe in the 'Field of Dreams' approach - make a truly unique, cool, product and people will always buy it - and that does work. But, to make a truly unique pedal you will likely need to capture a young market (as Fulltone and ZVEX did) and be very dedicated and smart (read lucky). They got market share when it was theirs to take, and now they can shoot for the higher end customer because they are trusted names and have market share. People can shake their fists at the Beringers of the world - but IMO they are the ones that are taking a more sustainable approach and are not living in denial of the business conditions - their approach is dictated by the state of the market for effects today.

IMO, the reality is that the business world spins on the Beringer approach - the small time effects maker is going to have to put real engineering and creativity into their products to make it form scratch in today's market. It's going to have to be a whole lot more unique than just a paint job. To make a business out of effects making you are going to have to be more creative than ZVEX and Electro Harmonix and have better mechanical engineering than ZVEX and Fulltone - because that's who one is up against. In this market, I think the BYOC approach is the way to go - selling an assembled product is going to be tough - the BYOC approach is really offering a slightly different product to the same market, with enough elements of the Beringer approach to be sustainable..

[wampcat1]

IMO, there is a big difference between selling a few pedals that you built and trying to build pedals so you can sell them.  What I mean by that is just because a person knows how to build them doesn't mean he'll sell them... and once they are sold, you'll want to look back and see if it was worth it, or if you would've been better off taking a part time job at burger king.

Much of the time (especially just starting out), your $/hr wage will stink on ice until you start to put the business aspect in front of the building aspect.

Just my $.02 from observing and being a small part of it.
bw

[declassified]

I have a very small side business I do with my friend,  I built byoc, other clone type kits and he paints them and we sell them at conventions in a our local area and through facebook/kiijji.

Money is very slow and light and its expected we do it for fun just as much for money. here is some our work.



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[R.G.]

You do realize that one out of every four people on the planet are already trying to do the same thing, don't you?

[darron]

we do it for fun just as much for money.

see above
people will do it as a fun craft. because let's face it, it's a FRICKEN COOL hobby! so you'll need to sell something different-to/better than most folk.




cost account every material/expense you can think of to build the pedals. say you can make 2 COMPLETE pedals a day, and have them delivered to a happy customer, then maybe that's a win. but don't forget the admin. i bet you had to have a lot of discussions with the customers you sold to for that one day. and had to get them both out to the post office that day. and do your admin, don't forget that every single part that comes in has an invoice to process. my 1590B pedals cost about $50 in full materials, so that's $100 a day you'd have to cover in parts, let alone workshop/living costs. and you don't get holidays, sick days, etc. of course. oops and there were some paypal fees lol


if you enjoy it, do it for as long as you enjoy it. once it feels like a drag and you're doing favours for people then maybe you'll be thinking about whether the money is worthwhile or not. if it's really a dream then you'll follow it regardless
if you've got a product that everyone loves then that's something to start with.

[blackieNYC]

Never, ever, think about how much money you are making per hour.

[BubbaFet]

Have you ever looked at effectsdatabase.com ?
Every week, on their home page, they list how many new brands have entered the market, as well as how many new pedals have been announced. The numbers are staggering! But hey, it's only life... what else do you want to do with it?