please define "great tube sound"..help!

[dschwartz]

talking  a bout "brown sound".. i think my favorite guitar sounds are:
- "amsterdam" by van halen... man, that guitar sounds huge..very distorted, but you can still hear the strings slapping the air.
- Any song on "waiting for the punchline" by extreme..very bright, but warm and really controlled..i´m still wondering how Nuno avoided HF oscillations..the main and outro riff on "cynical @#$%" really makes my ears smile, not to mention "naked"... wow..
- Slash on "appettite"...i have boosted jcm800´s but i´m not even near from that aggressive mid-bite, "i´ll kick your ass" sound.
- ZZ top´s "pincushion". cool sound..
- Skid row´s "i remember you" solo...thats FAT FAT FAT, but responsive and articulate..(how did he..?)

my least liked sounds (although loved by many) are:
- some led zeppeling songs..feels like Jimmy page never really found jis sound.. in every song sounds different..(yeah, i know that maybe that was intentional, but i don´t think so)..some of them have awful farty-broken speaker buzz..
- any guitar with excesive chorus..sounds cheap..
- Santana´s latest works..high gain, guitar tone full back..boring, especially with the BORING pentatonics he allways insists to play..
- anything with wrong equalized fuzz/big muff

[shredgd]

I think that the main difference between SS and tube amps is in what you "feel under your pick/fingers".

You might not tell a good SS equipment from a tube amp when their sounds are recorded, but you'll likely be able to tell the difference blindly if YOU are playing.

A consequence of this is that the better you'll become as a guitarist, the more you will appreciate tube amps.

With "better" I'm not referring to speed, obviously (nevermind my nickname...  ), but to touch and feeling. For example the way pinched harmonics or even semi-harmonics sound on a tube amp is probably the most noticeable difference. Harmonics sound a thousand times better on tube amps, and with more volume, too (my brother, who doesn't play any instrument, stated that this last point was the first thing he noticed after I started playing with tube amps).
You will notice big differences especially when playing with slightly overdriven sounds, where dinamics are not almost abolished as in high gain saturation, so you can feel how better a tube amp responds to your "commands" than a SS.

So to me a "great tube sound" is a guitar tone which sounds good, but also "feels" good!...  

Giulio

[dschwartz]

that´s what i call "touch sensivity" and IME is due to input impedance and filtering more than tubes..i´ve played some marshall tube amps that made you struggle with the strings, your 0.09´s became 0.13´s (specifically a JCM900)

[Baktown]

I still maintain that it comes down to what style of music you like as to what type of amp you prefer.

I agree with everything Daniel says about sounds he doesn't like.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I've never really cared for the sounds that other people seem to think are the "Holy Grail" of tone from players like Page, Beck, Clapton, Gibbons, etc.  I'm not a fan of blues or classic rock, so I have a hard timing hearing what's so special about these guys and their equipment.

To each his own!

Axl

[bipedal]

Interesting discussion topic -- thanks for raising this issue.

As already noted, good guitar tone is such a subjective thing.  This topic reminds me of that old quote from a Supreme Court justice regarding obscenity -- he essentially said, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

It's hard to translate tonal characteristics concepts directly into words, so we make do with words like "warm", "squishy", "punchy", etc. which can capture fundamental ideas but not the nuances.  Yet, it's the nuances in sound that we're all talking about, no?

My 2 cents to add: when talking about any instrument, context is key, i.e. what else is happening sonically?  Things sound and feel different in isolation vs. in combination with other sonic voices.

A non-guitar example: a trumpet and a cornet have the same note range.  If the sounds are compared side-by-side without any other music going on, the trumpet will likely have a brighter, more "cutting" sound to it, which *could* be considered as harsher (less pleasing).  Put 'em in the context of a full band, and the trumpet's "cut" and harshness could be the preferable tone.

A guitar example: when I was a teenager playing guitar at home, I thought my Fender Princeton Chorus (solid state) sounded pretty dang good in "distortion" mode.  Until I tried playing in a band with it -- suddenly, it was lacking mid-range fullness and seemed awfully brittle and tinny, no matter how I adjusted the tone controls.  Haven't had this problem with a tube amp.

Some favorite guitar tones that come to mind for me:
- Lots of earlier Aerosmith stuff.  The sound of the "Sweet Emotion" guitar riff gets me every time I hear it.
- Ian Mackaye's guitar sounds, especially on the final two Fugazi albums.  The distorted riff of "Cashout" on End Hits -- I think it's an SG straight into a Marshall - awesome.
- Angus Young's lead sound.
- I haven't really stuck with Radiohead in recent years -- I fear I'm quite uncool or unsophisticated for saying the The Bends is still my favorite album of theirs -- mostly because of the songwriting and arrangements, but also in part because of the guitar tones.
- The rhythm and lead sounds on Lenny Kravitz' "Are You Gonna Go My Way".  Lots of Fuzz Face there, I think.

Cheers,

- Jay

[dschwartz]

I still maintain that it comes down to what style of music you like as to what type of amp you prefer.

I agree with everything Daniel says about sounds he doesn't like.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I've never really cared for the sounds that other people seem to think are the "Holy Grail" of tone from players like Page, Beck, Clapton, Gibbons, etc.  I'm not a fan of blues or classic rock, so I have a hard timing hearing what's so special about these guys and their equipment.

To each his own!

Axl

couldn´t agree more w/you

the politically incorrect part of me thinks that the influence of 60´s and 70's guitar heroes (they were like gods!!) imprinted in the collective imagination that tube amps sound better..They MUST sound better cause Hendrix, Clapton, Page, Young, etc etc used them, and also because they´re expensive and they have cool looking light bulbs inside..

then when you go home whith your new $2000 tube head and play a while, you found that the difference is not that big, so we started to justify our expensive/famous gear with subjective, non specific words, and magic properties..

i´m completely sure that if current SS tecnology/design were available back in the days of "guitar gods", tubes would be lost in oblivian (is that word well used here?)

imagine jimi hendrix playing a sans amp, page with a POD, and youg with a Dr boogie .. im pretty sure they would absolutely love them..

[suprleed]

Plug a $3000 guitar into a crappy cheap amp and it will sound like garbage. Plug a cheap guitar into a $3000 amp and it will probably sound pretty good. So often the importance of the amp is overlooked.

+1000

Many young guitarists when they first start out focus too much on the type of guitar (myself included) when trying to dial in "good tone."  I ended up with a nice guitar and had to skimp on the amp and I've regretted it ever since.  I now wish I could reverse them (and am in the long process of trying to save up for or build something better).  As its been mentioned above, there are many, many variables that go into achieving "good tone" - guitar, pedals, amp, speakers, cab, skill, etc. and just one of these variables alone will not magically give you the holy grail.  You have to find a complete "set up" that sounds good to you and makes you want to rock!

That being said, I think there is an excessive amount of "hype" that goes into the coveted tube amp tone.  In a side by side blind comparison, I wonder how many guitarists would actually be able to tell the difference between tube and SS?  I'm sure in certain playing situations or styles the differences may become more/less appearent, but how many people do you know that simply want to buy amp x or guitar y because (insert famous artist here) plays one?  That's what I like about the DIY community here, although we may try to emulate certain sounds/artist styles on occaision, we're all trying to find what sounds good to us, whether its by trying to clone a classic fuzz or developing a completely unique curcuit.  I think we cut thru a lot of the industry BS here and just try to find our own "great tone."

Just my 2 cents...

[mojo_hand]

The difference between tube and SS:

If you get any old tube amp, even one that was used to power the PA system in a supermarket (like Harvey Mandel and his Bogen), with very minor circuit changes it will probably sound quite good.  But doing that with someone's old SS stereo amp wouldn't be worth the bother.  It might have good cleans, but anything dirty which comes out of it will sound not so good.  That's why we use various sorts of diodes to do our clipping for us, eh?  And a bunch of other little gimmicks.  We're trying to add good tone to a system which doesn't have it on its own.

So my answer would be that tubes just naturally sound better, and that good dirty sounds from SS amps have to be carefully designed in.  Sometimes that's done successfully, but a lot of the time it isn't.

[dschwartz]

So my answer would be that tubes just naturally sound better, and that good dirty sounds from SS amps have to be carefully designed in.  Sometimes that's done successfully, but a lot of the time it isn't.

+1 on that..
but i think today´s SS designs are more succesful than a fail..  i´ve played a lot of post-90 SS amps, and most of them sounded great or have a thing going on..like little fender champs..or ultimate chorus, trace elliot, the peavey bandit series, crate gx212 (not the new head version, those suck), line 6 amps or tech 21, roland amps sound great, too

i´m not talking about cheap SS amps like "park" (pretty sad amps), washburn (toys), epiphone (are you jokin´?), and other toyish amps..

with a thinkful design ss amps can be very good, but sadly, bad reputation and always being compared with tubes keeps them down...

[shredgd]

The difference between tube and SS:

If you get any old tube amp, even one that was used to power the PA system in a supermarket (like Harvey Mandel and his Bogen), with very minor circuit changes it will probably sound quite good.  But doing that with someone's old SS stereo amp wouldn't be worth the bother.  It might have good cleans, but anything dirty which comes out of it will sound not so good.  That's why we use various sorts of diodes to do our clipping for us, eh?  And a bunch of other little gimmicks.  We're trying to add good tone to a system which doesn't have it on its own.

So my answer would be that tubes just naturally sound better, and that good dirty sounds from SS amps have to be carefully designed in.  Sometimes that's done successfully, but a lot of the time it isn't.

I agree 100%.

Giulio

[Alien8]

  Oh damn, you mean the sound isn't warm just because the tubes are warm? 

Don't forget what I said earlier...  Any of those "gods" of guitar history that had enough backing ($) to become as popular as they did had solid state pedals before their amps, which were tube powered.  The combination of solid state and tube sounds better than anything else, which makes sense, since they both have inherent qualities. 

Many of the Hi-gain Messa's have a "silicon" setting built in so they can achieve the sound they are after - I'm not 100% sure, but I think that it is SS clipping being powered by tubes.

It's a bold statement to imply that just because joe somebody made it famous using tube amps that everyone following thinks tubes sound the best... I totally agree with you questioning it from that perspective, and I think in many ways you are right in saying that it is pushed on us.

I chose tubes because of their character and thus nature to wear out.  I choose the strings I use because of how fast they wear out in order to preserve my tone, or let it age.  This all fits my character... vibration is influence, music and light are vibrations, powering music via light makes the most sense to me, but that is my opinion, and I'm really glad that someone is questioning it.  I use solid state to add what is missing from my tubes, and to make them what I need them to be, I choose tubes so I can change the character and make it grow with me.  I depend on solid state equipment to help me do that, because its always the same.

In summary... your musical influence dictates your tastes - solid state or tube - and your choice to follow or lead is what sets some humans apart from others.  Your values define you, allowing you to question why tubes are so "great".  They aren't great, they are just a choice, just like choosing to close your mind to a modeling amp, because there aren't tubes in it.  Choose what you are, and express yourself the way YOU want to be heard, and love it!!!

[DDD]

Couple years ago I've read the following: "SS circuits have been historically based on the tube circuitry since tubes were the first active devices. But SS triodes are significally different from their vacuum predecessors. So they need their own circuitry design principles instead of direct cloning of tubed circuits". Maybe "that is the question"?

[Jered]

  Probably won't help at all but my PRS Custom 24 through a Matchless Chieftan and an old Boogie 4X12 split back cab. Or same guitar through a Trainwreck (I think ODS). Both were sheer heaven with the Trainwreck being a little cleaner sounding. Hear great things about Dumble amps but have never played through one.
  That's my idea of what good tube amps should "sound like" but its so, SO, very subjective.
  Queens of the Stone Age, have a very unique sound. For that band "that sound" is great guitar tone. Tubes or not, that works perfectly for that band.
  Sorry, I know that didn't help at all.
  Jered

[soulsonic]

I fear I'm quite uncool or unsophisticated for saying the The Bends is still my favorite album of theirs

The Bends is by far their best album. Kid A is blatantly influenced by Coil, and it pretty much set the tone for everything they've done since. While it's interesting to hear Coil's style of music performed in a Rock context, I think it's totally lame that some people assume Radiohead invented weird music. The reason why I feel this way is because Kid A came out shortly after I got my copies of Musick to Play in the Dark vol.1&2 and I couldn't help but notice the fact that many of the signature electro sounds from those latter Coil albums were all over that Radiohead album. So, while I thought it was an interesting album, it came off as sounding really unoriginal to me.
The only Radiohead album that's really held up over the years to me is The Bends, and I didn't actually get into that album until it had already been out a for awhile. It's one of those albums that's not so much stuck in a certain era, you can "discover" it at any time and it will always sound fresh and interesting. Not very many albums can accomplish that.

FYI - the "Silicon" setting on a Mesa amp turns on a silicon power supply rectifier instead of the tube one. The difference is that the silicon one doesn't have the voltage "sag" at high power levels. It has nothing to do with any clipping circuit, though the lack of sag can tighten up a distortion sound alot. Lots of tube amps use silicon rectifiers normally anyway;  almost all the high powered Marshalls and Fenders for example.

As far as the SS vs. Tube thing: I was able to get my bandmate's solid state rig to sound very close to my tube one - all it took was the right tweaked-out pedal. The feel while playing isn't totally the same, but it's close enough to feel good, and the sound is close enough to fool an audience. A good sound is a good sound - if you have a good ear, you can tweak practically any rig to sound good.

[hellwood]

i´ve read a lot about differences between tubes and SS, and still cannot tell the big difference, i´ve heard some tube and SS amps and i swear i dont hear or feel any significant difference between the two..besides one is more expensive, heavier and need a lot of maintenance..

compare any healthy vintage MV marshall JMP50/100, JTM45, '59 fender champ, '65 fender bassman/pro/super...to any SS and you WILL hear THE difference!

subjective terms like "sterile", "punch", "warmth", "brownier" really puts me off...

sterile- the lack of "balls" J/K -the lack of harmonic content
punch- low end responsiveness
warmth- the lack of shrillness
brownier- high gain oozing with warmth

what´s the "holy grail" of sound?
something like SRV? Lynyrd Skynyrd? ZZ top? metallica, what?

uh, that would be coltrane, charlie parker, hendrix...or anyone who plays w/ feel and can make you forget your problems  no matter how lame their equipment is

also, who could possibly put into words a description of the "holy grail" of sound?
talk is cheap but you cant put a price on good tone

[dirk]

Many of the Hi-gain Messa's have a "silicon" setting built in so they can achieve the sound they are after - I'm not 100% sure, but I think that it is SS clipping being powered by tubes.

The silicon settings on Mesa amps is in the power supply. It switches from tube rectifiers to silicon rectifiers.

In theory SS amps should be able to sound just as good as tube amps.
But it's much eazyer to make a tube amp sound good than it is to make a SS amp sound good. Tubes have "softclipping" build in. Transistors/chips don't have that, but that does not mean that they can't have softclipping like tubes. It just takes a talented designer to achieve this. Unfortunate the most talented designers think audio is not an interesting subject, so they work in other industries, where they can make some cash.

[Johan]

it really hard to pinpoint exactly what makes a great tubetone, but I'll say this..I often end up playing on borrowed backline and without exeption ( yet ) whenever it is a SS amp ( nomatter what make ) the sound dissapears after a few seconds...not dissapears as in broken amp...but in a gig situation, the SS amps always turns into a sort of pitch-less BZZZ...it might be painfully loud but still not possible to hear oneself properly...it might sound great by itself, but in a band situation they just ...dissapears...bzzzzzz, bzzzzz
also, typicaly with tubeamps, it's like some sort of multiband compression going on. play a chord and you get a nice balance of lows, mids and highs. play a solo in the higher frets and it's not just all highs, but gets soften and fater...hard to explain...
..and for those who say SS amps can sound as good as tubeamps...well, maby they can ....but they don't...if they did there would be no tubeamps around anymore....technology tried to leave tubes behind 50 years ago, they are still around...

j

[R.G.]

One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

One man's fish is another man's poisson.

[George Giblet]

Dude A:  plays guitar through x in a guitar shop.
Dude B: walks in, "Dude what are you playing though"
Dude A:  "x"
Dude B:  "Sounds like tubes"

[petemoore]

good dirty sounds from SS amps have to be carefully designed in.  Sometimes that's done successfully, but a lot of the time it isn't
  SS and Tube are comparable as far as complexity, tube amps need ... tubes, transformers etc. so are more expensive to build.
  Take your simple tube amp and back it into a corner, it will growl [~Quote Mr M Hammer].
  Try that with SS and it'll bark, and not a nice thick growly bark either, the kind where you'll wanna shoot the dog, SS amp clipping is to be avoided around humans IME.
  So you're compelled to look for tube amp distortion or whatever grind you may find desirable ... somewhere other than the output section of SS.
  Tube amp is like 'padded ceiling' of headroom.
  Run well under headroom it's clean and a lot like SS amp.
  Get near the ceiling of headroom in a TA and the waves get shaped in an appealing way [so the consensus goes...
  The closer you get to the headroom the more wave re-shaping takes place.
  SS amps do similar method...set a ceiling and put the signal up where it hits it...clipping diodes/transistors pushed to distort, CMOS...do fine job of getting 'a tube like' sound, the meaty goodness parts of it anyway, notice I said "a" sound, the signal levels Vs. clipping levels are what generate the harmonics, and are 'fixed'...the speaker/output transformer/power transformer/tubes all interact with eachother 'at frequencies/levels', creating complex algorythms...which can be digitally emulated exactly [so they say] at some fixed rate of processing.
  All these methods work just fine.
  Instead of re-inforcing the wall built in the mind between the available distortion generating methods and suggesting 'choose sides'.
  I don't recommend any one is 'better' than any other one, try all three...