FF --> Overdrive = Not So Good

[Joe Kramer]

Hi Friends,

I've got the standard issue FF with a .01 cap and a 100K pot on the output.  When feeding an overdrive, I get the familiar hyper-compressed mush, especially with the guitar's neck pick-up.  I've tired series resistance on the FF to reduce output voltage/current with little improvement.  Also tried reversing the order using the AMZ pick-up simulator trick on the input of the FF, but it still compromises the FF sound too much for my taste.  I'd prefer not having to switch off the overdrive everytime I want a decent fuzz sound, and also would prefer not to have to set-up something elaborate like an A/B switcher.  BTW, I don't think it's the fault of the overdrive either--several others I tried do roughly the same thing.

Anybody have ideas/suggestions for a solution to this?  Does there exist an overdrive pedal that doesn't mush-out when driven with a FF? 

Regards,
Joe

[slideman82]

That's natural! The FF makes a very square signal, and it's really compressed! When you put that through an OD, it's amplified up by the op amp and cutted by the diodes, so more compression it's added! Really a nasty ball of noise!

[John Lyons]

Try a smaller input cap on the FF .1 or so, or even smaller. Maybe an input cap blend between .01 and 10uf, so you can set it on the fly.
The larger input caps compress and much out the sound. Sometimes this is a good thing...sometimes not.
The FF circuit is very dependant on the input cap. You can make a FF into a nice defined fuzz/od by changing the input cap and a couple other things.

John

[earthtonesaudio]

An alternative is to run the fuzz and OD in parallel, rather than series.  But that requires a splitter and mixer.  ...which is unfortunately a lot more complex than an a/b loop selector, which you already don't want to do.

But yeah, try John's suggestion first.

[Joe Kramer]

Really a nasty ball of noise!

Right!  And not that that's always a bad thing (it isn't), but it's not always what I want.   

Try a smaller input cap on the FF .1 or so, or even smaller. Maybe an input cap blend between .01 and 10uf, so you can set it on the fly.

Good ideas, but there's one problem: I happen to be absolutely thrilled with the sound of this particular FF, so any big change in the sound is a deal-breaker.  As far as taming the low end, I've already taken that as far as  possible without losing the essence of the tone: reduced my original .047 output cap to .01, reduced the Q2 emitter cap from my original 33uF to 22uF, and already had the 100K pot in place.  I'm afraid any more low-cutting will take out the guts. . . .

An alternative is to run the fuzz and OD in parallel, rather than series.  But that requires a splitter and mixer.

I did consider this, but the biggest problem is actually some sort of splitter, which would probably have to be active, which would then probably affect the FF tone, putting it all back where we started.   

Aside from a FF-proof overdrive, the only other alternative I could think of was to put the OD and FF in the same box and rig up a network of switches to give me A/B, A+B, etc, etc.  Possible, but not very elegant.

[earthtonesaudio]

Last resort option:

A footswitchable input cap (select between standard and a smaller value for use with the other pedal).

Put the switch somewhere close enough to the FF bypass switch that you can activate both with one stomp.

Use a DPDT and you can have an LED for the cap also.

[zombiwoof]

I could be wrong, but I think you're going to have a problem getting the FF to sound good with the OD using the same settings on the OD that you use when it's working on it's own.  I have found that my FF sounds good with the Screamer set to more of a "clean boost" setting, or using just a clean boost or compressor after the FF instead of the TS.  Seems to me that an A/B loop switcher is your best bet.

Al

[John Lyons]

The sound of the FF is dependent on the input cap for a few things.
Level into the circuit
Bass content which leads to level...
Bass content, Level which dictate the amount of compression/fuzz and mushy
sloppy goodness vs clarity and definition/faster attack with a smaller input cap.
These are all intertwined.
The sloppy bass is directly related to the input cap value.

There are two things (at least) going on.
The output cap and related components has a good deal to do with the low end coming out of the circuit but the input cap sets tone and dynamics of the circuit for the reasons mentioned above. If it's sloppy going in then nothing you do at the output will clear this up.
Both alter tone but cleaning up the input has a lot to do with the dynamics and feel of the whole circuit.

"Good ideas, but there's one problem: I happen to be absolutely thrilled with the sound of this particular FF, so any big change in the sound is a deal-breaker.  As far as taming the low end, I've already taken that as far as  possible without losing the essence of the tone: reduced my original .047 output cap to .01, reduced the Q2 emitter cap from my original 33uF to 22uF, and already had the 100K pot in place.  I'm afraid any more low-cutting will take out the guts. . . ."

I guess I'm not sure what you are after. You don't like what you've got but yet you don't want to change it either?
I understand the dilemma, I think the input blend is your best bet. Check out Joe Gagan's easy face for the blend diagram. (GGG or in the schematics here)

John

[Joe Kramer]

I guess I'm not sure what you are after. You don't like what you've got but yet you don't want to change it either?

Thanks for all your suggestions, and sorry if I may not have placed the right emphasis on what I was looking for.  I had said this:

I've got the standard issue FF with a .01 cap and a 100K pot on the output. When feeding an overdrive, I get the familiar hyper-compressed mush, especially with the guitar's neck pick-up.

To be as clear as possible, I'm happy with the FF as it is, and I'm happy with the overdrive as it is.  The problem lies with the interaction between the two.  I've toyed with just about every possible permutation--pedal order, attenuation schemes, pick-up simulations, frequency shaping--to little avail.  So far, the least harmful set-up is still simply FF into overdrive (rather than the other way round), but it's still a ways from ideal.  At this point it, it's looking like some sort of A/B switcher might be the only way to get the best of both worlds. . . .

Regards,
Joe