Is glossy paper better than matte for toner transfer?

[merc]

First I used a transparency sheet for a projector as a transfer sheet, which failed miserably.  I have tried using matte photo paper, but every single time I try it I have large areas where toner will not stick.  My method is scotch brite the copper, then use acetone. After that, I put the sheet on the copper and iron it on.  I've tried all times from 3 minutes to an hour.  Nothing works.  When I'm done, I dip it in water and rub off the paper.  Is there something I'm doing wrong in my process, or is matte paper just impossible to use?

[bkanber]

Yeah, matte paper is probably the problem. I use semi-gloss paper and have never had a problem with toner transfer. I iron for about 10 minutes. Your technique sounds fine; it must be the paper. Also, try dish detergent when rubbing the paper off, you don't have to use as much force getting the paper off that way.

[Michael Allen]

It could be a couple things. I've never used scotch brite, but try using steel wool and scrubbing in perpendicular directions multiple times. Then yeah clean with solvent and don't touch.

YES! use glossy paper. I used matte recently since i forgot to check the paper before i printed and it worked but it was real difficult to get the paper off. Since the board was clean enough the toner all transfered nicely but its hard to get the paper off. I've used Epson glossy photo paper and after soaking, the paper literally pulls off in a sheet and there is no paper left on the board! It's amazing the entire sheet just comes right off and there is no clean up! Use glossy paper!

[merc]

I think I'm going to pick up some HP Every-Day semi-gloss.  Is that the kind of stuff I'm looking for?

[Mark Hammer]

Photo paper IS photo paper because it has a smooth emulsion adhered to the surface of paper which, on its own, would be grainier and not permit fine resolution and "smooth" images.  The reason it works for toner transfer is because when heat is applied to the paper the toner (which is fused by heat with the surface of that emulsion layer) adheres to the copper surface and pulls the emulsion layer off the paper.  Part of that is a chemical adherence to the copper, but part is also a kind of suction phenomenon.  The more complete the contact with the copper surface, the easier it is for the toner to stay where it is, and in the "custody battle" between paper backing and toner+copper, the paper backing loses "custody" and the emulsion goes to the copper board.  It is the emulsion, not the toner that provides the true resist pattern.

Given all of that, shinier paper (which implies less granularity and a more perfect "seal" when pressed down on the copper board) and a shinier copper surface present the optimum conditions for a great pattern transfer.

If you wanted an analogy to think with, try and imagine how firm a grip you would have pressing a dry suction cup on a painted wall, versus pressing a wet suction cup against a glass surface.  Obviously, the second one would present a more solid grip.  That's what shinier paper and shinier copper surface give you.

The corollary of that is that PnP yields better transfer than paper because it is a smoother surface than photo paper.  Personally, I have found paper transfer to be adequate for the spacing/resolution of over 90% of the things folks here might wish to build.  PnP is cosmetically nicer, but only really necessary when many traces have to be crammed into tight spaces.

[Ed B.]

I have had success with photo paper that I had laying around (unfortunatley I don't know the brand) then I tried Staples brand in the red package. It took much longer to remove the paper, the image looked good, but the toner lifted off completely when I etched the board (with HCL and peroxide), maybe the Staples paper needs longer heating time, because I prepped the board the same way as I did before.  I think there is definately variation between photo paper - so once you find a brand that works - stock up!

I like to use photo paper though because my Kinko's won't let me anywhere near their copiers with PNP blue.  I'm going to hit the library today and try the PNP (unsupervised ).  Has anyone ruined a copier by running PNP through it?

[Mark Hammer]

PnP blue is identical to overhead transparency sheets, except that the emulsion is opaque rather than transparent, and is likely a wee bit thicker in the case of PnP.  The emulsion coating the acetate sheet for transparencies is intended to attract and retain toner, and assumes no "challenge" to that adherence of toner.  The emulsion coating the acetate on PnP is purposely designed to attract and retain toner, but to "yield" when challenged by the adherence of the toner to a clean copper surface.  The exact same principle applies to both PnP and photo paper. 

The acetate sheet will not melt at the temperatures normally used for fusing toner (otherwise how could you iron it to copper board without it turning into a blob on your iron?).  If the copier can do overhead transparencies then it can safely use PnP.  If the copier can not do overhead transparencies then you should avoid sticking PnP in it.  The only caveat that comes to mind is that the PnP sheet may be slightly thicker than paper so it may get jammed in the pinch rollers.  Of course, if the copier can accommodate phot paper (which is considerably thicker than PnP), then it should have no problem accommodating PnP.

Worse comes to worse, find yourself a public-use copier that has a "manual feed" tray, and stick your PnP in there.

[GREEN FUZ]

I`ve had some great success recently with laser copies printed on thin (photo-glossy) card as opposed to the paper variety. It seems to come off cleanly, without the need to scrape off any residue, leaving a clean sharp image, which can, if needs be , be touched up with a CD marker. I haven`t timed myself but I don`t believe I spend more than a minute in actually ironing the layout to the board.

[merc]

I picked up some of the cheapest Kodak gloss paper I could find.  I took it to the local copy place, and made a sheet of my designs, with three of each different layout.  I ironed on the first one, dunked it for a while, and peeled off the paper.  Surprisingly, only a few small sections of trace were missing.  But I thought I could do better.  What followed were four complete disasters.  NONE of them worked.  I iron for at least 10 minutes each, and normally longer since I don't know how to tell when the board is done.  I then put it in the water for about a half hour, then carefully peel the paper off.  There are always sections where no toner has fused to the copper, but I am sure I meticulously go over every millimeter of the board with the iron.  After every failure, I clean the board with acetone, give it a quick scrub with a scotch brite, then hit it with more acetone.  The next design goes on.  I really don't want to buy another pack of paper, I already spent 20 bucks on the stuff.  I don't know what to do.  I'm about to go INSANE from the frustration.  Everyone else says it's easy, but I cant get it!  What am I doing wrong?  If it will help, I could put up pictures of my process.  Help me out!

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Merc, before getting more photo paper, try using glossy magazine paper.
Also check whether there are ridges on the edges where you have cut the board, that is stopping the iron getting completely flat to the paper.
Also try a couple of sheets of paper , on top of the paper with the toner. (makes the pressure more even).

The key is, there are a lot of variables, so keep tryig different iron temperatures, ironing times etc. many people - including myself - have had a lot of trouble at first. Others are luckier.

http://www.riccibitti.com/pcb/pcb.htm

[merc]

I don't know that the magazine paper would be very practical in my case.  I'm using a public copy machine since I have an inkjet printer.  I'm worried that the magazine paper would get jammed.  Have you ever used it in a copy machine?  It would be the easiest to get though, because I have so many old magazines its scary.  I recently took 2 years worth of Sports Illustrated out from the depths of my bed.  That's over 100 magazines.  Too bad they're all busy being recycled right now.  No worries though, they're piling right up again.

The ridges just might be my problem though.  I used a Dremel cutoff wheel to cut my boards, and I neglected to sand down the edges, since I didn't really see the point.  Fifteen bad transfers later, I think I see the point.  I'll go see if it works with a sanded board.  Fingers crossed...

[GREEN FUZ]

The ridges just might be my problem though...

It`s possible. It seems, from what you`ve described, that you`re doing everything else correctly.

[Michael Allen]

really really concentrate on getting it clean with the scotch brite. You said you gave it a quick scrub but it really needs a full scrubbing to ensure the board is perfectly shiny and not oxidized. this is the only way you will get a good toner transfer.

[AndyA]

I find that if you hold the iron at 45 degrees to the board and use the edge of the iron and a decent amount of pressure you're guaranteed a good transfer. Works best if you "tack" the paper to the board with the flat side of the iron first. You should be able to clearly see the areas that have been "edged". However if the board is too hot, when you edge it the paper will slide across the board and make a horrible mess of the transfer. It also helps to put holes in the blank (white) areas on the pattern with a needle or something

[merc]

I've tried these tips (except for holes in the paper) and I still can't get a good transfer.  One thing that might be doing it is that to check and see if the toner is sticking, I usually grab an edge of the paper and lift, and normally the whole corner comes up with all the toner still on the paper.  The places where it should stick just look tinned in the shape of the traces.  Is checking to see if the paper is sticking my problem?  Maybe it forms a stronger bond as it cools?

[Michael Allen]

Iron longer

[dxm1]

The places where it should stick just look tinned in the shape of the traces.

Hmm... Seeing 'ghost traces' is usually a symptom of not enought heat. Can you increase the temperature of you iron? You've said that you apply heat for 10 minutes - I never iron that long.

[merc]

Iron longer

That's funny, considering I ironed on the last failure for 45 minutes.  I don't think time is the problem.

Hmm... Seeing 'ghost traces' is usually a symptom of not enought heat. Can you increase the temperature of you iron? You've said that you apply heat for 10 minutes - I never iron that long.

Nope, I have the iron set at cotton, which is as far as the knob will go.  You think a different iron would work better?

[dxm1]

Nope, I have the iron set at cotton, which is as far as the knob will go.  You think a different iron would work better?

The PnP web site recommends 275-325 F. Since I have an IR thermometer that hooks up to my meter, I checked. My old iron barely reached 260 on the highest setting.  Got a new $15 iron, it measured about 305 on the highest setting. I've been getting good transfers with overhead transparencies since (I use an HP LaserJet).

[merc]

I used some sort of hair iron ( I guess it was a straightener, because it was flat.) It looked like a pair of barbecue tongs with two metal plates on the inside, which were about 2 inches wide.  It's supposed to get up to 400 degrees F.  Guess what?  IT WORKED!  The first few tries were failures, but the last one was a total success!  Not a single trace is missing, and the only damage is from me scratching the toner in one spot.  I think this iron worked so well because it gets so hot and it heats from both sides.  I'm in shock right now.  You know what they say: 30th time's the charm 

One more question (that doesn't match the title but is still sort of on subject):  Which would be better to patch that one scratch, a sharpie or a Uniball pen?