Fuzz Face needs more volume!!

[Monotremata]

Ok just recently finished up a GGG Fuzz Face kit.. Just the stock no options...
Im running into the same problem all my pedals seem to have..
VOLUME!!! Im running a Telecaster with a Hot Rail into my 82 JCM800...
Fairly clean tone on its own (as clean as you can get the JCM800 that is), and pedals make all my grind for me.

Now in order to get the volume on my FF to match where the amp is with it off, I literally have to open the volume knob all the way on it.

Heres the GGG scheme just in case: http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_ff5_sc_npn.pdf
Now based off of the Axis Fuzz mods, I replaced R4 in the GGG circuit with a 1k2 instead of a 330 ohm, which was supposed to give it a nice boost and keep things even at about 11:00 on the volume knob..

I got a little more volume out of it but I still have to crank the thing past 3:00 to get it to sound right. Otherwise I kick on the FF and get a nice volume drop..

I think this weekend Im just getting parts and building an Axis Fuzz anyways.. Sounds like all the mods done to it will get rid of any of the shortcomings Ive found with the original FF circuit.

Any ideas??? After all my years playing this is my ONE gripe hehe. Only pedal Ive ever owned that didnt seriously cut the volume is my Boss Tremelo and my EH Metal Muff..

[Auke Haarsma]

swap Q1 and Q2.

[petemoore]

Any ideas???
  This requires debug, the FF gain should produce volume far above unity.

[Monotremata]

What kinda debugging would you suggest??

Q1 and Q2 have been swapped endless times.. Aside from the stock PN2369A ones GGG gave me, Ive also bought several 2N3904's as well..
Very very negligible differences between the two.. I have checked the voltages on the Q pins, and theyre coming out just about perfect to where GGG says it should per their instructions (literally like within like .1-.2 of what they say the value should be around)..

Other than that 1 resistor I swapped the rest of the circuit is stock right on with GGG's instructions..
i dont know maybe its my wiring?? Maybe I got a crappy pot?? Is this why Jimi had his Fuzz Faces modded in the first place?

Another thing I  noticed, I added C4 like they said to block out radio interference, and when I have the pedal on and my volume knob on my guitar turned all the way down here comes some rad mexican radio through the Marshall! Although this might work for some wierd segues in between songs in a live situation haha!

So I dont know maybe something in the pedal is laying on something it shouldnt be???

[AceLuby]

I had a similar problem w/ my Lava Rim 2 build.  It turned out that one of my transistors was shot.  Did you socket the transistors or did you solder them directly to the board?

[Dragonfly]

Im running into the same problem all my pedals seem to have..

There might just be a "clue" there.

[Monotremata]

Ace - Yeah both trannies socketed just like the kit has.. If one was shot though wouldnt the voltage readings be off?? Guess I could swap the 2369A's back in and see if that matters or not..

Dragonfly - come on now be more specific hehehe. Seriously though, it just seems like every pedal Ive ever owned was that way.. Well let me say every distortion/fuzz/overdrive pedal anyways. Keeping the volume knobs at 12:00 did NOT equal the amp with the pedal off. I dont know maybe its me but this is after like ya know 20 years of playing with various things along the way.. And this is the only pedal Ive built.. The rest are all off the shelf store bought.. And yeah the EH Metal Muff is the only one thats got the volume to match the amp when its up at 12:00.. I love that pedal but Im getting sick of the full on metal sound and would like to go for more of that sound Pete Townshend had when his Hiwatts were cranked and he kicked in his Univox Superfuzz..

My Boss Heavy Metal pedal was the worst, the volume knob on that has to be cranked just about all the way.. My DS-1 I can get by with it around 2:00 and it matches pretty nicely.. I had just hoped the Fuzz Face would be this way!! I know theres nothing wrong with my JCM800 or my Tele! The two together literally kill rodents running in the walls in our studio.. But the JCM by itself doesnt move into melting Godflesh/Swans/Neurosis feedback territory like I like it.
JCM gets a checkup once every 6 months or so, and the Tele well, only mods done to that were a GFS Hot Rail put in the bridge but my Strat is the same way with a Duncan Distortion in the bridge as well..

[sfx1999]

Sounds to me like you misbiased Q2. Another possibility is you used the wrong value capacitor on the emitter of Q2. Or, you used the wrong value potentiometer for the fuzzpot.

[Dragonfly]

Ace - Yeah both trannies socketed just like the kit has.. If one was shot though wouldnt the voltage readings be off?? Guess I could swap the 2369A's back in and see if that matters or not..

Dragonfly - come on now be more specific hehehe. Seriously though, it just seems like every pedal Ive ever owned was that way.. Well let me say every distortion/fuzz/overdrive pedal anyways. Keeping the volume knobs at 12:00 did NOT equal the amp with the pedal off. I dont know maybe its me but this is after like ya know 20 years of playing with various things along the way.. And this is the only pedal Ive built.. The rest are all off the shelf store bought.. And yeah the EH Metal Muff is the only one thats got the volume to match the amp when its up at 12:00.. I love that pedal but Im getting sick of the full on metal sound and would like to go for more of that sound Pete Townshend had when his Hiwatts were cranked and he kicked in his Univox Superfuzz..

My Boss Heavy Metal pedal was the worst, the volume knob on that has to be cranked just about all the way.. My DS-1 I can get by with it around 2:00 and it matches pretty nicely.. I had just hoped the Fuzz Face would be this way!! I know theres nothing wrong with my JCM800 or my Tele! The two together literally kill rodents running in the walls in our studio.. But the JCM by itself doesnt move into melting Godflesh/Swans/Neurosis feedback territory like I like it.
JCM gets a checkup once every 6 months or so, and the Tele well, only mods done to that were a GFS Hot Rail put in the bridge but my Strat is the same way with a Duncan Distortion in the bridge as well..

The reason I mentioned that is that others don't seem to have problems with commercial pedals generally. In fact, one of the 2 that you said DIDN'T have that issue was the Boss TR-2, a pedal that is notorious for a volume drop ! (there are mods to fix that particular issue !)

Are you having these problems with the pedals in a chain, or singly ? Are you near the max on your clean sound ? Could you be pushing your clean channel into compression, and that's accounting for the perceived volume drop ?

See, it could be lots of things...sure, it could be the GGG fuzz face.... BUT...the fact that you have the same issue with nearly every other pedal points to an entirely different issue.

Just my opinion.

[pixel]

is there a simple circuit you could add to increase volume on an arbitrary pedal? i too have a fuzz face styled pedal that requires more volume because i added a big muff tone circuit to it, which dropped the output significantly!

[Monotremata]

Yeah Ive seen the mods for the TR-2 but honestly I cant tell any difference other than the tremelo doing its job really.. I just keep it at one setting with a really hard square wave going so who knows?

As for the amps clean channel well.. Its a JCM800 2204. Only one channel, six knobs, goes to 11.
The preamp is on about 2 because anymore than this and well its in Marshall roar territory and while the amp sounds great, it just doesnt go 'over the edge' like I like it too hehe.
I do LOVE the thick mid boost that kicks in though when I do turn the amps preamp up.. But yeah wierd that everything but my Metal Muff does it.

Ill have to go play with the Fuzz Face on my Bassman tonight and see. That things only got Vol, Treble, and Bass on both the bass and normal channel so Ill rule out any preamp suckage there!

Actually if I can remember, since all this crap is out at the studio anyways.. Ill do some quick A/B's with an SM57 tonight of the pedals on and off..

For all I know, its because Im in our rehearsal space sitting in front of the amp and my hearing is whacked but most of the time I remember plugs hehe!
Ooo maybe I can remember to get a pic of the paint job you inspired in the first place as well!!!

[John Lyons]

Make the 390R resistor (sometimes a 470R) 1K and you'll get more output from a FF type circuit.
Make the resistor directly connected to the collector of Q2 smaller and you'll get more level as well.
You will have to adjust the bias though in fooling with these resistor values.

Hell, swap the 470R and the 10K and you'll get a TON more volume and keeping the same bias.
Too much is not enough!

john

[drewl]

Sometimes with master volume amps you can't push the front end enough with pedals to make a lrge gain in volume since the signal is just getting squashed by the gain knob.
The pedal shouldn't lower the signal though....
Do you have this problem with real pedals?

[Monotremata]

Make the 390R resistor (sometimes a 470R) 1K and you'll get more output from a FF type circuit.
Make the resistor directly connected to the collector of Q2 smaller and you'll get more level as well.
You will have to adjust the bias though in fooling with these resistor values.

Hell, swap the 470R and the 10K and you'll get a TON more volume and keeping the same bias.
Too much is not enough!

john

Theres no 390 or 470 ohm resistor in there. There was a 330 which I stated I swapped out with a 1k2..
Cant connect a resistor directly to Q2 either as theres a 10k trim pot right after it for setting bias.. Someone told me putting the 1k2 in there would give it ridiculous volume levels, but its also a stock mod on the Axis Fuzz.. But didnt really make much difference over here..

Drewl - that kinda makes sense. I didnt get any recording done last night cause I found out the power tubes in my 66 Bassman were going bad (the molten red color and burn spots on the glass kinda clued me in) and spent most of the night 'fixing' that.. I can try that one tonight and see if it makes a difference as well. Although my Bassman, starts breaking up at like 2-3 on the volume knob so last time I tried my FF on it, it just got super squashed mud tone.. It dont like pedals very well. I usually just use my boss SD-1 in front of it and jumper the channels and CRANK IT!!  But yeah like I said elsewhere, I seem to have this problem with any distortion/gain pedals except my Electro Harmonix Metal Muff. Its the only one that if I turn the volume up past 1:00 its TOO loud.. I was always kinda stumped by it but eh maybe youre onto something with the master volume theory...

This is why I really really really really want an old Hiwatt..

[drewl]

What kind of Basman?
My ProReverb will stay pretty clean up to about 5-6.....I have a post phase master in it for getting a little grind at lower volume.
Have you tried the low input on your Marshall?
Run the gain and master higher since it will be cleaner, then dirty it up with a pedal and you'll be surprised at the volume jump also.

[BarnabyHooge]

Make the 390R resistor (sometimes a 470R) 1K and you'll get more output from a FF type circuit.
Make the resistor directly connected to the collector of Q2 smaller and you'll get more level as well.
You will have to adjust the bias though in fooling with these resistor values.

Hell, swap the 470R and the 10K and you'll get a TON more volume and keeping the same bias.
Too much is not enough!

What's the downside to doing this? I'm thinking there must be a trade off.

[petemoore]

  What kinda debugging would you suggest??
  The kind RG describes int eh 'debugging' thread at top of threads in sticky.
  But the kind that provides numbers which allow making a bias equation for Q2C at the very least, but only for starters or until the FF works like a FF.

[Monotremata]

What kind of Basman?
My ProReverb will stay pretty clean up to about 5-6.....I have a post phase master in it for getting a little grind at lower volume.
Have you tried the low input on your Marshall?
Run the gain and master higher since it will be cleaner, then dirty it up with a pedal and you'll be surprised at the volume jump also.

My girlfriend is going to hate you because I probably wont be at home much tonight hahahaha!
I never thought to try the Low input on the JCM800..

Im not sure what year the Bassman is exactly. The tube guide on the inside of the head is ripped off and all thats left of it is part of the diagram showing the 7025's and one 6L6 heh. I may take out the chassis tonight just to look at the circuit.. Its a blackface though so its from somewhere in the range of 65-67 or so. The Bass channel is a little cleaner (go figure it has an extra preamp tube too) but yeah turned up to about 3 its got a nice raw Pete Townshend kinda overdrive on it. I LOVE the dynamics of it too.

Barnaby - honestly swapping the 330 for the 1k2 did nothing to the tone of the pedal.. Despite it not adding this massive amount of volume I was expecting, it doesnt seem like it really did anything to be honest..

petemoore - saw that after I posted the question.. however like i stated I ran through it with my meter already and all of my numbers are just about spot on with what they should be.. Any values I had were within .1-.2 of what they were supposed to be which should be just fine and normal..
Who knows..

[Dragonfly]

What kind of Basman?
My ProReverb will stay pretty clean up to about 5-6.....I have a post phase master in it for getting a little grind at lower volume.
Have you tried the low input on your Marshall?
Run the gain and master higher since it will be cleaner, then dirty it up with a pedal and you'll be surprised at the volume jump also.

My girlfriend is going to hate you because I probably wont be at home much tonight hahahaha!
I never thought to try the Low input on the JCM800..

Im not sure what year the Bassman is exactly. The tube guide on the inside of the head is ripped off and all thats left of it is part of the diagram showing the 7025's and one 6L6 heh. I may take out the chassis tonight just to look at the circuit.. Its a blackface though so its from somewhere in the range of 65-67 or so. The Bass channel is a little cleaner (go figure it has an extra preamp tube too) but yeah turned up to about 3 its got a nice raw Pete Townshend kinda overdrive on it. I LOVE the dynamics of it too.

Barnaby - honestly swapping the 330 for the 1k2 did nothing to the tone of the pedal.. Despite it not adding this massive amount of volume I was expecting, it doesnt seem like it really did anything to be honest..

petemoore - saw that after I posted the question.. however like i stated I ran through it with my meter already and all of my numbers are just about spot on with what they should be.. Any values I had were within .1-.2 of what they were supposed to be which should be just fine and normal..
Who knows..

Like I mentioned, due to the fact that it happens with pretty much ALL your pedals, I suspect that it has to do more with your rig / setup than anything else.

I hope youre able to get it worked out....maybe you'll end up loving some of those old pedals you've been ignoring ! 

[drewl]

bastid...you got a blackface bassman...good for you.
The older ones do break up earlier, but you still should be getting a little more headroom with that amp.
Then again another man's distortion is a metalhead's clean.