DP3T (on/on/on) question

[ambulancevoice]

with the standard toggle versions, when in the middle on position, do the two poles themselves connect? or is it both throws that connect the poles? also, here, the only dp3t i could find were some slide ones, BUT, they have a weird pole throw layout and i not sure whats what

http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/484c7d1a0449b3362740c0a87f9c06c5/Product/View/P7614

[Cardboard Tube Samurai]

Use a multi-meter to figure out what connects to what

[R.G.]

From the article on switching at GEO:

A switch POLE is the terminal that is selectively connected to one or more THROWS.

A THROW is connected to the pole only when the switch is in the proper position to connect. Otherwise it is open.

So a DP3T switch is a Double Pole, Three Throw arrangement. That is, there are two poles. Each pole is connected to one of its throws when in that position. There is no connection between the poles or the throws other than this, unless you wire it up that way.

So, to answer your questions:

with the standard toggle versions, when in the middle on position, do the two poles themselves connect?

No.

or is it both throws that connect the poles?

Neither poles or throws are connected; each section of one pole and three throws are independent. The only connection is mechanical in that the handle or knob moves both pole connections at the same time.

also, here, the only dp3t i could find were some slide ones, BUT, they have a weird pole throw layout and i not sure whats what

That's what ohmmeters are for.
Label each pin on the switch, for instance 1, 2, ... N.
Make yourself a table of N x N  positions, and label each row 1, 2, ... N, and each column 1, 2, ... N.
Now put your switch in position A (the first one, however you call it).
Use your ohmmeter to test pin 1 to pin 2. Connection? If yes, put an "A" in that block in the table. Now test pin 1 to 3, 1 to 4, ... 1 to N, marking as you go.
Wait, not done with A yet. Now test pin 2 to 3, 2 to 4, 2 to 5, ... 2 to N. Continue, marking connections as you go.

Now, switch the position of the knob/handle to position B. Do the test and mark again.

Now switch the position of the knob/handle to position C and do it again.

Sounds bad, but it will really take you less time than you've spent on asking the question and making up the diagram already, and it will catch EVERY POSSIBLE THING THAT COULD BE IN THAT SWITCH.

What it will probably do is something dull - like each pole connects to one and only one throw in each position.

And you'll be sure.

[ambulancevoice]

From the article on switching at GEO:

A switch POLE is the terminal that is selectively connected to one or more THROWS.

A THROW is connected to the pole only when the switch is in the proper position to connect. Otherwise it is open.

So a DP3T switch is a Double Pole, Three Throw arrangement. That is, there are two poles. Each pole is connected to one of its throws when in that position. There is no connection between the poles or the throws other than this, unless you wire it up that way.

So, to answer your questions:

with the standard toggle versions, when in the middle on position, do the two poles themselves connect?

No.

or is it both throws that connect the poles?

Neither poles or throws are connected; each section of one pole and three throws are independent. The only connection is mechanical in that the handle or knob moves both pole connections at the same time.

thanks
im not sure i understand though
if its an on/on/on, and there is nothing connected to anything in the middle on position, then what?
the thing with those dp3t on/on/on toggles is that they dont have an extra set of lugs for the third throw, so i assumed in the middle on position, the two poles would be connected, and no throws would be, or that both sets of throws are connected to the poles

thats what im trying to find out

also, cause im young and dont have money, i dont have a multi meter yet

oh and R.G., i know what a pole and throw are but thanks

[dxm1]

thanks
im not sure i understand though
if its an on/on/on, and there is nothing connected to anything in the middle on position, then what?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.  What do you mean "nothing connected in the middle on position"?  If you don't make any connections to the middle throws, you essentially have an on-off-on confguration.

the thing with those dp3t on/on/on toggles is that they dont have an extra set of lugs for the third throw, so i assumed in the middle on position, the two poles would be connected, and no throws would be, or that both sets of throws are connected to the poles

thats what im trying to find out

The diagram you posted has a set of lugs for all three throws.  Are you referring to a different diagram?

also, cause im young and dont have money, i dont have a multi meter yet

This will be a serious impediment to your understanding of how all of this stuff works.  Can you bump this up your priority list? I don't know about Oz, but in the US cheap Chinese meters can be had for under US$5.

[ambulancevoice]

according to RG, with those toggle DP3T switches, in the middle position, nothing is connected to anything.... wait... oh i see it now, ok forget the toggle switch question

the diagram refers to the second question about the dp3t SLIDE switches (at the link)
there lugs are set out like the diagram, i was wondering if anyone knew what pole connects to what 3 throws
(the poles being the single lone lugs and the throws being the three in the row)

and i never said the multi meter wasnt high on my priority list, i just dont have any money to get one

[dxm1]

the diagram refers to the second question about the dp3t SLIDE switches (at the link)
there lugs are set out like the diagram, i was wondering if anyone knew what pole connects to what 3 throws
(the poles being the single lone lugs and the throws being the three in the row)

Ok, so you've guessed the pole and throw lugs.  That would have been my first guess as well.

and i never said the multi meter wasnt high on my priority list, i just dont have any money to get one

Testy, are we?  Calm down, Sparky.  I'm sure we can overcome both your character defects and mine and get down to the solution to your confusion...

For this test, you don't need a multimeter if you have a decent collection of extra parts left over from previous builds.  Your post count suggests that you have built a few.  So, if you have the following, you're golden:

1)  a resistor, 4K7 to 10K
2)  an LED
3)  a 9V battery snap
4)  a 9V battery

Solder one end of the resistor to the negative (cathode) end of the LED.
Solder the positive (anode) leg of the LED to the positive (red) lead of the battery snap.
Plug in the 9V battery.

Voila!  A poor boy's continuity tester.  Touch (or better yet clip) the negative (black) lead of the battery snap to one of the suspected switch poles.  Touch the free end of the resistor to each lug in each of the two groups of three suspected throw lugs.  This will in short order (pun intended) tell you whether the throws are related to the pole lug on the same side of the switch, or the group on the opposite side of the switch.

But, since you have a means of testing continuity, you may as well follow RG's advice and do the full "matrix" test.  This will prevent any embarassing surprises if the switch is wired in a non-standard way.

[ambulancevoice]

the diagram refers to the second question about the dp3t SLIDE switches (at the link)
there lugs are set out like the diagram, i was wondering if anyone knew what pole connects to what 3 throws
(the poles being the single lone lugs and the throws being the three in the row)

Ok, so you've guessed the pole and throw lugs.  That would have been my first guess as well.

and i never said the multi meter wasnt high on my priority list, i just dont have any money to get one

Testy, are we?  Calm down, Sparky.  I'm sure we can overcome both your character defects and mine and get down to the solution to your confusion...
[/quote]

what??? no no! i was just saying

and the pole throw thing, its pretty clear on what lugs are the poles and what lugs are the throws, what i wanted to know is what pole connects to set of throws, the ones opposite to them or the ones above them

For this test, you don't need a multimeter if you have a decent collection of extra parts left over from previous builds.  Your post count suggests that you have built a few.  So, if you have the following, you're golden:

1)  a resistor, 4K7 to 10K
2)  an LED
3)  a 9V battery snap
4)  a 9V battery

Solder one end of the resistor to the negative (cathode) end of the LED.
Solder the positive (anode) leg of the LED to the positive (red) lead of the battery snap.
Plug in the 9V battery.

Voila!  A poor boy's continuity tester.  Touch (or better yet clip) the negative (black) lead of the battery snap to one of the suspected switch poles.  Touch the free end of the resistor to each lug in each of the two groups of three suspected throw lugs.  This will in short order (pun intended) tell you whether the throws are related to the pole lug on the same side of the switch, or the group on the opposite side of the switch.

But, since you have a means of testing continuity, you may as well follow RG's advice and do the full "matrix" test.  This will prevent any embarassing surprises if the switch is wired in a non-standard way.

ive actually done something like this before, to test if a dpdt switch was working
i dont have these switches now btw, but i want to use them at one point and i wanted to see if anyone could just tell me from experience so i dont have to waste time soldering an led and stuff to the switch to to find this out
but thanks for the replies

[R.G.]

This is getting a little acrimonious, and it shouldn't be. Alex seems to be trying to learn.

and the pole throw thing, its pretty clear on what lugs are the poles and what lugs are the throws, what i wanted to know is what pole connects to set of throws, the ones opposite to them or the ones above them

With no pointedness intended, there is no way to tell without either the manufacturer telling you (i.e. the correct datasheet for that specific switch), tearing it apart and visually seeing what connects to what (usually permanently destroying the switch), or using some kind of continuity checker. The battery/resistor/ LED thing works fine for bulk continuity like on switches and wiring. When I first started work professionally, we used something similar - a tube containing two AA batteries, a lamp, and a point on the end. The other end had a black wire with an alligator clip on it.

Seriously, you will rapidly reach a place where there is nothing further you can do without a multimeter. I know it seems like a huge obstacle, because I was young and poor once too. But it's necessary. I don't know the places in Australia that have rock bottom prices like I do here; however, I do know about Dick Smith Electronics. They seem like an upscale place and you can probably do better on price if there is a Harbor Freight outlet somewhere you can get to, or better yet, mail order from. Dick Smith (http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.filereader?484d1e57000c41c82742c0a87f9c0682+EN/catalogs/CTG0000175) lists meters for AU$9.99 and AU$16.99, which prices are comparable to the parts cost for another pedal, and DSE does mail order.

On the toggle that was supposed to be on-on-on:
- it seems that your information does not match your switch; that is a very common problem with switches, and one reason I leapt immediately to using a meter.
- an on-on-on toggle switch could be two things; if it has four lugs per pole, then it should be one pole and three throws; if it has three lugs per pole, it should be one pole and two throws, but the center on position could be a connection to *both* throws, and that is what I would expect. I would not expect the center on to be a connection between poles.
- switches vary hugely, and are custom made for special purposes by military and big commercial firms. Surplus switches may have almost anything. Again, you need a meter.

I first went through the "what &*#)#^% lug connects to what??" question at age 14. I puzzled through it (no internet back then!) until I borrowed a local ham radio friend's meter. It was clear in five minutes then.

[akc1973]

Hi Alex,

don't know if you are in Melbourne or not but I bought a perfectly adequate multimeter from Jaycar for $9.99...that's a 1 2/3 hungry jacks meals....I'm sure you can afford that....


Not having a go...just offering a suggestion...


AKC1973

[Joe Kramer]

Hey A V,

IIUC, a standard toggle DP3T (on-on-on) works like this:

Code Select Expand


X
0-0 0

0-0 0


  X
0-0 0

0 0-0

    X
0 0-0

0 0-0



The zeroes are the poles, the dashes are the connections made by the throw, the X indicates the toggle position.  Seems strange at first, but very useful once you get it!

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Joe

[ambulancevoice]

Hey A V,

IIUC, a standard toggle DP3T (on-on-on) works like this:

Code Select Expand


X
0-0 0

0-0 0


  X
0-0 0

0 0-0

    X
0 0-0

0 0-0



The zeroes are the poles, the dashes are the connections made by the throw, the X indicates the toggle position.  Seems strange at first, but very useful once you get it!

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Joe

ah thank you
wow, never would have though of that
thanks man