Neovibe photocells

[pold]

Hi all, I am planning on building a neovibe, the problem is: where to find custom made photocells identical to those on the original univibe? I am really fussy about it. Do you have any idea or suggestions? The aim it would be to create something as close as possible to the Mojo Vibe (in my opinion the best vibe ever made). I know Banzai and Small bear are selling photocells for univibe, but I am just not interested in them, they can't deliver the same thing, that's it, I am pretty sure of it!
Thanx

[BINGEWOOD]

What about these:

Http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=712

Small Bear says

"Fast, high dark resistance, hermetically sealed. Used in top-quality boutique 'Vibe clones "

[RedHouse]

Do yourself a favor, go here http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/pedalsUnivibe.html and read up on bulb driver modifications.

With this circuit you can dial-in nearly any LDR you can get ahold of for your 'vibe. The need for "special" LDR's will fade away as you enjoy vib'ing with what you can readily get.

[R.G.]

... the problem is: where to find custom made photocells identical to those on the original univibe? I am really fussy about it. ... The aim it would be to create something as close as possible to the Mojo Vibe (in my opinion the best vibe ever made). I know Banzai and Small bear are selling photocells for univibe, but I am just not interested in them, they can't deliver the same thing, that's it, I am pretty sure of it!

Well, if you're sure you can't get the right stuff and you're very picky about it, why not buy a Mojo Vibe?

But out of curiousity, how are you sure neither Banzai nor Small Bear's photocells are not the same thing?

[pold]

I tried to order a Mojo Vibe, but Bob Sweet didn't reply, he's got health problems, that's why I am planning to build a neovibe. I am just judging by what I heard carefully in every soundclips, and none of the vibe clones are as good as the Mojo, check this if you don't trust me:
http://www.sweetsound.com/Audio/MKaton/MichaelKatonLuvADog.mp3
Even Bob Sweet himself said that you can't get the same sound unless you use the same photocells, and to be honest I trust him !

[R.G.]

I tried to order a Mojo Vibe, but Bob Sweet didn't reply, he's got health problems, that's why I am planning to build a neovibe.

A new one is not the only way to find a Mojo Vibe. And given what I have seen of human nature, is is not possible that all previous buyers of MVs would refuse to sell. They're available, it's just not as easy as sending one email or making one phone call.

I am just judging by what I heard carefully in every soundclips, and none of the vibe clones are as good as the Mojo,

(a) who made the sound clips?
(b) under what conditions?
(c) what post processing was done to the clips?
(d) what soundcard, speakers, etc. were the sound clips listened to upon?
(e) was the Mojo Vibe in the sound clip identical to all the MVs ever made, or was there a spread in sound in them?
(f) were the other vibe clones identical to all of their brothers ever made, or was there a spread in sound in them?
(g) was the listening done under properly controlled double blind tests so that all the preconceived expectations were prevented?

check this if you don't trust me:
http://www.sweetsound.com/Audio/MKaton/MichaelKatonLuvADog.mp3

I trust you completely that you are telling me what you really think. I also trust completely that you cannot answer above seven questions in a way that would indicate an unbiased test.

However, there can be no disagreement about taste. If you *think* something sounds the best in the world, it does - at least inside your head. There is no absolute standard for what sounds good to you.

But there is no way to point to some one or other magic part as being The Secret. We found that out about germanium transistors and Fuzz Faces by long experience. The number on the transistor makes no difference; it's how it amplifies. Likewise, I'm sure that Bob Sweet is not the only person in the world that has good photocells. Economically, no manufacturer would make them just for him. There's not enough profit in it. So those photocells exist some other place in the world. In fact, are you ...sure... that Bob didn't get his from Small Bear? Or that Small Bear's stock doesn't vary from time to time?

Even Bob Sweet himself said that you can't get the same sound unless you use the same photocells, and to be honest I trust him !

Personal preferences cannot be questioned; if you like something, you like it and no one else can prove it's not so. But economics has a set of rules that, while a bit fuzzy in individual cases, are more immutable than any government's laws. It cannot be true that only Bob Sweet has those photocells, by economic law, as you sense by asking where to find them. And it is also true that the photocells in the original univibe varied themselves. I have repaired many original Univibes. Big surprise - they were not all alike either. Some were better than others to my ears. And while that doesn't mean you'll like the same ones I did, it for sure means they were not identical.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just trying to open up your mind to some other ideas. You've set a very difficult task for yourself. I think you can make yourself just as happy by other means.

[Eb7+9]

Jimi's univibe wasn't recorded under "special" settings by a neurotic ... and why is there no reference clips at Geo ?

yeah, part of it comes from the lack of Bulb-drive adjustment and the other part - I think also - from the cells ... but that's always in debate - been my opinion that the cells play a role but a few guys like Brad have confirmed otherwise I'm glad to hear ...

last winter, as an exercise for my analysis of the circuit, I came up with a wide-range work-alike that traverses through two more orders of resistance magnitude over the stock vibe's to see how deep the effect can really go and in hope of answering if the bulb-open-cell has an inherent maxima of drive potential ... going through all this open-bulb trouble sure is fun but turns out there's an easier way of getting the guaranteed deeper effect ... there is NO doubt that the original univibe has a sound that no one has exactly duplicated - but some have come real close ...

hope Bob gets better ...

[John Lyons]

JC
The cells you sent me sounded a lot better than the ones I had in there.
Not a night and day difference but made the NEO much better in depth.

I still need to build (sheesh) Brads version with your mods in play.

john

[SteveB]

I tried to order a Mojo Vibe, but Bob Sweet didn't reply, he's got health problems, that's why I am planning to build a neovibe. I am just judging by what I heard carefully in every soundclips, and none of the vibe clones are as good as the Mojo, check this if you don't trust me:
http://www.sweetsound.com/Audio/MKaton/MichaelKatonLuvADog.mp3
Even Bob Sweet himself said that you can't get the same sound unless you use the same photocells, and to be honest I trust him !

Pretty much any vibe (even homebrewed) out there will do that sound.
The important parts are the placement of the vibe in the chain, as well as the amp settings.
He's running the fuzz before the vibe into a relatively clean amp, & it sounds like the intensity on the vibe was on the lower side, like halfway or so. I think it's a pretty easy sound to achieve.

Steve

[R.G.]

Jimi's univibe wasn't recorded under "special" settings by a neurotic ...

If you'll read carefully, you'll notice that I didn't say it was. What I did was point out possible sources of error in deciding that only one sound could be the one, while still allowing for personal taste.

What *exactly* is in that that you want to argue with?

You're back to casting aspersion by allusion. You may have noticed that I'll call you on that every time you do it.

and why is there no reference clips at Geo ?

Largely because the Neovibe board
(a) has been freely available since before sound clips could be pasted on the web
(b) has been applauded as a great recreation of the Univibe by many people over the years
(c) I see no reason to set up a sound clip that would give the impression of being a reference standard when in fact, because of the sources of error I mention, no such standard is practical
(d) there are sound clips of representative Neovibes and Univibes (it's not possible to separate those two - they're the same circuit) in many other places.

yeah, part of it comes from the lack of Bulb-drive adjustment and the other part - I think also - from the cells ... but that's always in debate - been my opinion that the cells play a role but a few guys like Brad have confirmed otherwise I'm glad to hear ...

You know, I tried a long time to figure out what exactly you meant there. Nearest I could come was that bulb drive changes and cells make a difference in sound. I never did figure out what

been my opinion that the cells play a role but a few guys like Brad have confirmed otherwise I'm glad to hear ...

meant exactly.

In the case that I guessed right about the first part,
Well, duh. Of course the cells and bulbs (including how they're driven) play a part in the sound.

last winter, as an exercise for my analysis of the circuit, I came up with a wide-range work-alike that traverses through two more orders of resistance magnitude over the stock vibe's to see how deep the effect can really go and in hope of answering if the bulb-open-cell has an inherent maxima of drive potential ... going through all this open-bulb trouble sure is fun but turns out there's an easier way of getting the guaranteed deeper effect ...

Kewl. You found some wide range photocells.

How easy or hard is it for the average DIYer to get their hands on those, Exactly?

The Neovibe was intended to be INclusive not EXclusive, allowing a FX DIYer to get within the range of the original Univibes (which had a wide range in sound themselves) with as wide a range of parts as possible. The typical DIYer doesn't necessarily want to wait for solid-platinum parts from dealers who may or may not be truthful on the other side of the planet, just as one example of the problems they face.

Just to help you out, when you dig in for some detailed analysis next time, it's also easy to sub in real resistances for those photocells and see what it does with resistances that no single photocell can get to. I did a lot of my dinking with ranges that way.  Have I mentioned that the Univibe circuit responds well to simulation, too? 

there is NO doubt that the original univibe has a sound that no one has exactly duplicated - but some have come real close ...

Sir, you are at best mistaken, at worst deliberately promoting net-hype. I simply can't tell from this distance. 
(a) there is no one "the original univibe". There simply cannot be, given the parts tolerances in the originals, and the sensitivity of the originals to certain ones of the parts.
(b) samples of real, no fooling, original univibes sound different as a result; this is obvious if you've ever messed with more than one original and are honest with yourself and others.

hope Bob gets better ...

I agree absolutely with you on that.

[John Lyons]

Ding ding ding!
...and in this corner...
Let's just agree to disagree.

Steve B's clips of the slightly modded NEOvibe are about all I would hope to achieve with a Univibe clone.
Throw in JC's mods and you have a great combination of variations to "get you there". Nuff said. It's all there in the details.

Next...

john

[R.G.]

Let's just agree to disagree.

I'd love to do that. I've asked JC to stop it with the attacks many times. It doesn't seem to help.

Steve B's clips of the slightly modded NEOvibe are about all I would hope to achieve with a Univibe clone.

Yes, they are.

Throw in JC's mods and you have a great combination of variations to "get you there". Nuff said. It's all there in the details.

Absolutely. There are no magic parts, there is only the technology. If there is anything I harp on, it's that.

[fpaul]

I'm wondering which LDR's SteveB used.  His neovibe sound fantastic.

[SteveB]

I'm wondering which LDR's SteveB used.  His neovibe sound fantastic.

Thanks!
Silonex NSL 7350's from Small Bear. I cut a thin piece of aluminum sheet, polished it with car polish, & glued it to the inside the film cansiter top. My lamp bias measures 391 ohms from lamp driver emitter to ground. This seems to be the sweet spot I like. But before these, I used cheapo "whatever was in the pack from Radio Shack" & they were not all that different sounding than the Silonex. Maybe a bit different, but certainly not a night & day difference.

Yeah, the bulb is crooked, but it works. Radio Shack 12V/24ma.

Steve

[pold]

I really thank you for all your replies, I am not a rocket scientist, I was just hoping to find someone who know where to find custom made photocells.

Likewise, I'm sure that Bob Sweet is not the only person in the world that has good photocells. Economically, no manufacturer would make them just for him. There's not enough profit in it. So those photocells exist some other place in the world. In fact, are you ...sure... that Bob didn't get his from Small Bear? Or that Small Bear's stock doesn't vary from time to time?

As you said, if Bob Sweet or Mike Fuller are not the only ones to have those cells, I was wandering where to get them  ...

[SteveB]

I really thank you for all your replies, I am not a rocket scientist, I was just hoping to find someone who know where to find custom made photocells.

Likewise, I'm sure that Bob Sweet is not the only person in the world that has good photocells. Economically, no manufacturer would make them just for him. There's not enough profit in it. So those photocells exist some other place in the world. In fact, are you ...sure... that Bob didn't get his from Small Bear? Or that Small Bear's stock doesn't vary from time to time?

As you said, if Bob Sweet or Mike Fuller are not the only ones to have those cells, I was wandering where to get them  ...

I guess you'll have to ask them.

Nothing against Bob S. or Mike F., but that's called salesmanship.

I can guarantee you don't need custom made photocells to get the sound you are looking for.

Steve

[RedHouse]

....I can guarantee you don't need custom made photocells to get the sound you are looking for....

I'd second that opinion with heavy emphasis.


IMHO, the bulb driver adj circuit that JC has offered helps dial in the bulb to get it in the right "knee" area to get the best response from the LDR's you are using, with way less regard to the bulb or LDR type.

If you get your 'vibe' unit to the sound you most attribute to original vibes, then take off the bulb cover, you can see that the operation area of the lamp is from nearly-off -to- glowing around 1/2 power usually, the bulb driver adj circuit helps you get the driver circuit to get the bulb into the area the LDR's are more sensitive to, the driver adj circuit allows you to move everything to that area of operation seemingly a great compensation adjustment for available bulbs and LDR's.


The following are only my opinions:
(not meant to elicit any ill feeling)

• Having done ALL the mods (mine and others) on vibe boards over the years, I find this one mod (JC's bulb driver offset adjustment) the single most valuable mod one can apply to a vibe build.


• Perhaps second on my list would be the pre-gain adjustment RG offered (sub'ing the 1.2k/3.3k set for the 910/3.6k resistors) this although very slight and hard for some to perceive seems to balance the in/out level to my ears. YMMV
  (replacing the entire front end would be better for headroom, and more modern application)


• Third would be my own mods of swapping out Q10, Q11 and Q12 for MPS-A13 darlingtons

The mixer mod, although I have it on many boards, just seems like a waste of time IMHO, normally when I adjust it, it seems to land on the 1/2 way point of the mix trimmer anyway so most times I just use the two 100k mixer resistors originally spec'd and save some messing about, but I have a place on my boards for the trimmer in case the end-user specifically requests that feature.



Speaking of clips, I really need to get off my ass and get some clips made. Back in '05 I lost the HDD in my PC and all my clips and pic's (except for the pics on a personal webspace) so I have nothing to show for myself ...but I'll get that on "the list" and maybe get some posted somewhere soon.

It's lame to make excuses ...but... I've been quite busy this year. One Sivertone rebuild/mod, 3 Amp builds (custom, from scratch), I got my second pickup winder into operation this spring and have been winding pickups like a madman, and currently I'm knee-deep into a re-cap job on a 72 channel mixing console (which also needed 32 mic preamp boards fab'd) so I haven't spent any time around here for quite a while.

This site will be going away very soon but here are some pics of my winder if you are interested: http://users.isp.com/brad_anne/pickups.htm
(the links at the top of the pages seem screwed up, but the pages are there)

I've still got 32 channels to re-cap so vibe clips won't be real soon, but they're ..."on the list".   

-Brad

[yeeshkul]

A friend of mine has a Moho Vibe. I guess soon i shall be able to record a sample of Mojo and my beloved Neovibe whatever the result is, so you can compare the sound.

[pold]

Yes, that would be great to compare Mojo Vibe and Neovibe with clips. I am looking forward to hearing those.

[yeeshkul]

I've got the Mojo Vibe at home now, so stay tuned, i am working on clips