Red Llama in a popular recording?

[gutsofgold]

Does anyone know if the Red Llama or TSF has found its way to an actual produced recording? I see producers and studios stocked with lots of one-off, boutique style pedals but I have yet to see or hear Way Huge in a big name studio. I guess John Mayer used the Aqua Puss which makes sense but in my opinion the Red Llama is cool in a low-fi kind of way, not what I'd expect many people signed to big name labels wanting. Just wondering why the Red Llama was so huge ( ) but kind of non-existent on popular recordings.

[MikeH]

I know Tom Petty used one... can't say what actual recordings though.

[Mark Hammer]

I know Tom Petty used one... can't say what actual recordings though.

Interesting.  I recently loaned a bunch of pedals to a buddy who was looking for something that might push his small Ampeg amp into nice breakup.  The pedals ranged from only clean (MosFET booster) to much dirtier (Modded Dist+ with added treble cut).  In the pile was a modded Tube Sound Fuzz, which is posted in several different forms on my site and geofex.  When he returned the box-o-pedals, he noted that (to my pleasure and satisfaction) the only ones that did anything for him were my Crank and the modded TSF.  We both commented that the latter was perfect for "that Tom Petty rhythm sound" in almost perfect synchrony.  So, based on your comment, it appears we weren't that far off!   The circuit has to be tweaked for more modest gain, though, to nail that.  With gain low, it sounds great on a bridge P-90, I have to say.

[gutsofgold]

I was thinking about building one with the Rhythm/Lead switch but having the lead connect through the 100k and using a 10 or 20k for the rhythm. I couldn't find any other mods a part from the Red Llama ones.

[Mark Hammer]

I use lower value feedback resistors in the invertor sections, and do the driving with an op-amp front end rather than via the first invertor.   Both versions have their place.  I like the op-amp front end partly because it affords more opportunities to shape the tone prior to clipping, which is often the "secret" to please overdrive.  Sounds better to my ears but YMMV.

[gutsofgold]

Hmm, never thought about that. I'll have to do some research. Is there a schematic for this or a list somewhere? And do you alter the caps in the inverter sections at all? I was assuming they help with some high end roll off but I wasn't positive and if that's the case - what values to use.

Thanks!

[Mark Hammer]

The place to start is here: http://www.guitar-pedals-effects.com/HotHarmonics.html
You'll find links to a number of adaptations of the basic 2-invertor-section overdrive.

[John Lyons]

Same subject different question.

I had never built a Red Llama until recently.
It sounds good and I like the gain range but
there is a fizzy/light crackle when notes ring out.
It's working 100% as far as I know but this edgy artifact
is annoying to me. Otherwise is very nice.
There have been a couple posts on this subject in the past
so I know it's not just my built but somewhat intrinsic to
the red Llama. (correct?)
The frequency range sounds good to me so It's not a matter
of shaping the high end.

I'm wondering if lowering the feedback resistance like what
is talking about and then spreading the gain over 3 stages
instead of two will help with this.
Any thoughts on this?

thanks

john

[Mark Hammer]

That's why I like shaping the tone of the input signal via an op-amp stage.  You will note that the first invertor gets a (mostly) full-bandwidth signal.  Far better, I think, to trim back the high end on the input signal to 3khz or so, so you don't get quite so many harmonics of harmonics.  Tacking an SWTC on the end of it isn't such a bad idea either.

[Ben N]

With apologies to the OP, it appears that this thread is turning into an all-purpose "best way to make a CMOS distort" thread. So, here is a thought that occurred to me out of the old, usually pointless, contemplation of what to do with leftover inverters. Someone around here has already combined a TSF/RL with a Mr. EQ, which nicely uses up all six. My thought on this is that one can get a bit cleverer with how one arranges the inverter stages. Mr. EQs first stage is configured as a clean boost, so that could be tweaked to roll off highs, as Mark is suggesting. Treble boosts and mid-range boosts (a la Mark's 49er) go nicely in front of overdrives, so there are your next two Mr. EQ stages, switchable. Besides the high end fizziness, the other problem common to CMOS ODs is fartiness at the low end, which the RL partially cures with a smaller input cap. You could, however, take the Dave Barber approach of really gutting the bass at the input and boosting it back up at the back end to get a meaty-but-nonflatulent bottom. So put Mr. EQ's bass-boost stage after the distortion to restore bass, and set the input (and coupling) cap(s) appropriately.
Whadya think?

[Mark Hammer]

Clever.  AND economical.

And without wishing to be confrontational, the redirection of the thread wasn't so much about how to make a CMOS invertor distort well as much as how to attain mild distortion suitable for rhythm guitar purposes.....from a 4049. 

Hard to believe, I suppose, but sometimes people use overdrives for rhythm guitar.  Who woulda thunk it. eh?   In seriousness, though, that CAN be a difficult one to tackle sometimes.  Given that most pedals that produce harmonic distortion are generally conceived as devices for solos, or for hard-strummed 5ths and such, gentle grit from gently strummed chords (think Waddy Wachtel and Mike Campbell) is often the sort of thing that players seek out in their amps rather than in their pedals.  Pedals are capable of it at some level, but of course you have to start out intending to design the pedal for rhythm work, and not just blazing single-note solos or making a 10W practice amp sound like a Marshall at full bore.

[John Lyons]

Argh...kind of mangled my post above.
Note to self...proofread!!

Mark, I get what your are saying now.
The input was getting a little too blasted by bass...
For some reason I was thinking that the chip had some inherant fizzy artifact to it.
Should have known better and looked at the gain/frequency structure...

thanks

john

[Ben N]

Hmm, I thought Mark was arguing that there is too much treble at the input.

[Mark Hammer]

Yeah, actually Ben called it correctly.

On the other hand, if both too much bottom and too much top are an issue, then that argues even more strongly for an op-amp front end that permits tone-shaping, as far as I'm concerned.  Keep in mind that every series cap leading up to the input of the first invertor potentially serves as an additional pole of a multi-pole highpass filter.  With more poles summed together, that lets you set the corner frequency a little lower since the cumulative filtering effect is steeper.

[John Lyons]

Breadboard time!

John

[gutsofgold]

Don't mind the redirect at all... as I have two Red Llamas and modding one would be cool. I agree the Llama is mostly a lead pedal.

Welp after finding Mark's TSF adaptation I think I'll be able to add the in/out opamp stages to a seperate board and go from there!

[twangquack]

I agree the Llama is mostly a lead pedal.

Well ... yes and no. I mean, yeah, it does get pretty "full-bodied" as you jack up the gain and even with the simple "it's already well-mounted in its enclosure / I don't want to mess with it too much now" mod of reducing the output cap from the usual 10uF to a perhaps more sane 4.7uF, it still pumps out a fair amount of low-end (depending on gear and settings, of course). I ended up making the output cap switchable between 4.7uF and .22 -- may seem like a radical difference but with a tone control or an EQ pedal afterwards, you can really shape the tone in interesting ways. There are lots of things that can be be done to make a nice rhythm tone that isn't too raspy or overly crispy as you work to reduce the low-end of this pedal.

For one thing, I've enjoyed the "Stupidly Wonderful Llama" ... http://www.auaj24.dsl.pipex.com/SWL.pdf ... this tone control works really well. Using a 100K pot for volume gives me more range than I need, perhaps (and you have to twiddle a bit more to get to the perfect spot), but it's better than having too little. And the 10K pot (usually used for volume) works well with the Stupidly Wonderful arrangement when you switch things around. I tried a couple of different values but came back to the stock arrangement shown in the PDF. The addition of the Mosfet Boost before the Llama is a really fun thing for a "2-in-1" pedal. And, of course, you have to have the green LED for the MB and the red LED for the Llama circuit!

Just yesterday I experimented with running my "MOS-Llama" into my Hot Harmonics which has the AMZ Presence Control. Not to revisit too much of an old thread, but with the fun inherent in the "Octave" control of the HH (I call it "Gain 2"), and the mid-scoop capabilities of the Presence Control ... and then mixed with the MOS-Llama which has Jack's Mosfet Boost kicking the butt of the Llama down the highway, it's pretty insane! I did end up using another small board with a spare Mosfet Boost circuit to add to the Hot Harmonics --  to use as gain recovery -- since I noticed the AMZ/modified BMP tone control, passive as it is, was a bit of a robber ... not horrible as in "my-mother-in-law-is-in-a-local-wet-T-shirt-contest"-type of horrible, but the Mosfet Boost gain recovery was definitely an improvement. Unlike the Llama-cozied Mosfet Boost (which has the preferred 5CK pot), I used a fixed resistor for the MB/gain recovery in the Hot Harmonics to give the same results as the gain control up about 1/3 of pot/knob's travel (with the Mosfet Boost biased up to just over 5v, which I like). I forget the exact value, I'd have to look it up.

Anyway, as has been discussed before, the Mosfet Boost gives the Llama not only a good, swift kick in the rear but helps with fartiness. It's like giving it a bit of "Gas-X" (tm) and letting it sit in the front pew of the church (where it really, really, does not belong). With moderate gain settings, kicking in the Mosfet Boost (which has its other output as unity gain/buffer when the MOS-section is clicked off) makes for a nice "lead channel" sound when the Llama circuit has the gain down low enough for some crunchy rhythm work. One important note: the Llama circuit definitely benefits from having a switchable cap across the outside lugs of the volume pot ("smooth mod") -- I have 282pF worth of silver-mica caps across mine ... I tried 350 pF or so but went back down to below 300. Some smoothie creatures may prefer upwards of the mid-400pF range but that wasn't optimum for my gear. Below about 220pF isn't worth the effort. If you build the Stupidly Wonderful Llama with a "smooth switch," switchable output caps, and the SWTC, you'll definitely play with various combinations of settings. Much more versatile Llama, call it: the "Versa-Llama."

Hmmmm, says I ... what about running this dual-madness into the Hot Harmonics, with the HH's "Octave" control up a goodly amount and the first gain control up at least a fair ways. Whoa ... hold the phone and bring the horses out of the blazing pasture!! Yowza! My intent in coming all around Robin's barn to tell this tale is that the FUZZ was deliciously juicy in a way that made Big Muff angels (get your mind out of the gutter, ie: things that sound dirty, but are not) weep with envy from their lofty Triangle heights. I dialed in a slight mid-scoop with the AMZ Presence Control of the HH, and continued to slowly jack up the gain of both the Hot Harmonics and the MOS-Llama until both the tippy-toe highs and gutter-sleeping lows were fighting tooth-and-nail like old bandmates of mine, outside of McSorley's (NYC) on St. Patrick's Day. After I managed to dislodge the cat's claws from the ceiling, not too very long after my preamp tubes stopped smoking, I knew I was onto something; in retrospect, I think it was the Telecaster's bridge pickup that caused most of the mayhem ... ("Here, kitty-kitty-kitty ...")

After lots of CMOS brain-sear and growly gruntage, I'll probably revisit the old wooly uncle (his clothes are starting to get decidely ripe and "Aqua-Lung-ish" -- Tull reference, for you older gents) -- that is, the uncle that is the various Tubescreamer permutations; and I'll wrap myself in gooey layers of middy tone-cloaks ...

[WGTP]

Well, I have been working on this a little: http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/WGTP/Red+Rooster.GIF.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1  and have found that the 4049 seems to respond differently than the typical dual op amps we work with a lot around here, because it is different.  With all the stages and feedback loops, it are MANY different design opportunities and options for shaping the tone.  I recently tried the 74HCU04 as suggested by Tim in his CMOS Boost & Drive and find I like the treble better. 
http://www.geocities.com/tpe123/folkurban/fuzz/snippets.html

Mosfets, when driven hard, seem to have a treble quality (harmonics) that some find unnatural, but I find "realistic" in the way they produce this "air ripping" effect that normally would be associated with an overdriven tube amp a high volume.  The fact that this is accomplished at low volume is very useful.  "Blizzardy" is a term ZVex labeled it with his Box of Rock.  It can be overdone and a Red LLama/TSF at max gets unpleasant to me.  With all the farting and Blizzarding, it seems more suited for lower gain stuff IMHO or an outhouse in the snow. 

By adding diodes, you get a more familiar sound, but somewhat softer than standard op amps.  By using 3 or 4 stages driven at lower levels with some high filtering, the tone can be maximized for some really nice high-gain loads of compression/sustain tones. Typically I use a 22n cap between the first 2 stages for bass roll off (SWAG 700 to 800Hz).  Then at the end I have a passive notch filter for bass restoration.  ROCK ON   

[John Lyons]

Thanks for posting that red rooster snippet page WGTP.
I had saved it a little while back.
I'll be refereing to it

Also thinks for your thoughts overall on what these sound like

john

[earthtonesaudio]

One extra hidden bonus feature inside each inverter is the pair of reverse biased body diodes.  From each inverter output, one diode has anode to Vss and the other has cathode to Vdd.  You can use these as "diodes to ground" by plugging straight into the output (but it's a good idea to short input to output so the gate isn't floating).

Every so often you'll see a CMOS inverter distortion with one of it's later stages shorted input-output.  It's not just to mess with your mind!