Fuzz Face and Rangemaster placement in the chain

[frank_p]

The Fuzz Face and the Rangemaster

How do you think its best to place them with all your other effects.  I have some "ideas" but I am not sure about that.

1) Guitar -> Fuzz Face -> Other effects -> Rangemaster -> Tube amp

    Because of Gus Law (Guitar is part of the effect in the FF circuit) and because of the Rangemaster high output signal pushing the amp (not the effects)

    Is that a good way to think  .


2) Guitar -> A/B box -> Other effects -A/Bbox -> Tube amp     
                    |                                       |
                    Fuzz Face  --> Rangemaster


3) Guitar-> A/B/C Box -> Other effects -> A/B/C box -> Tube amp
                    |                                            |
                     ----------Fuzz Face---------------
                     |                                            |
                     -- --------Rangemaster-----------


- Is it safe to place an "standard-modern"  effect after the rangemaster of it should really be at the end of the chain ?
- Is it useless to put the Rangemaster in front of the Fuzz Face  ?
- Are there other impedances issues (and/or other issues) with the RM and the Fuzz Face (other than the front end FF issue) ?
- Do you have other ideas or preferences ?


Thanks
F.H.P.

[DougH]

I usually put the rangemaster in a separate loop from other fx. It doesn't play well with buffers before or after it. It probably works okay in front of a fuzz face and you could probably put them in the same loop. The RM essentially becomes the first stage of the amp, like any booster, so using time delay fx after it is useless IMO, unless you put them in the fx loop of your amp and you don't rely on power amp distortion.

[drewl]

I usually run my FF clone after the wah, before other distortions/boosters so I can pump up it's voulme and run my rangemaster last after mods and delays for extra needed volume boosts.
Seems to work out real well this way with minimal noise.
YMMV.

[Ben N]

Didn't one of Joe Gagan's confections consist of a Rangemaster into a FF? Having said that, a RM generally ought to see amp the way Adrian Peterson sees end zone.

[hairyandy]

I usually put the rangemaster in a separate loop from other fx. It doesn't play well with buffers before or after it. It probably works okay in front of a fuzz face and you could probably put them in the same loop. The RM essentially becomes the first stage of the amp, like any booster, so using time delay fx after it is useless IMO, unless you put them in the fx loop of your amp and you don't rely on power amp distortion.

That seems backwards to me Doug.  Delays always sound bad in FRONT of an amp unless the amp has lots of headroom and is ultra clean.  Therefore, to me, the delay will sound really bad in front of a RM because those delayed repeats will still be getting crushed by the RM just like the front of a gainy amp would.  I always run my RM first in my chain and my delays last and that way the delays stay clean.  This doesn't work with my Trainwrecks (not much sounds good in front of them really) but it works great with my old Bassmans and my white Showman which all have lots of headroom.

Andy

[frank_p]

Didn't one of Joe Gagan's confections consist of a Rangemaster into a FF? Having said that, a RM generally ought to see amp the way Adrian Peterson sees end zone.

The Skyripper, Ben ?

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=53669.0

http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/cathexis/Veroboard+Layouts/Skyripper/Skyripper.jpg.html

Did not find his other ones: Nitroburner, BrontoBoost, Dinausor, etc... 

I wonder what Joe is doing, hope he is fine...

I don't know anything about football.  Yeah if it ought to see the pickup it would score at the wrong place...
It would perhaps do like an electromagnetic gun...  Damn where are my polepieces... 

[mikemaddux]

                                                       -----Fuzz---Other FX--------


Guitar- -A/B/Y (with blend if possible)---                                   -------Delay-------------Front of Amplifier


                                                       ------------Rangemaster-----

(or run the delay in the FX loop if you have one)

This setup will alow you:
1 to have consistent delay between both channels.
2 To get a decent sound with a finnicky rangemaster that doesnt get along with your newly built phaser...
3 to get your main tone from the fuzz/other FX and be able to blend in some nice top end with the rangemaster

Keep in mind "Jimi's law".....Do I want to distort my wah tone or wah my distorted tone? Each will result in two completely different sounds. And this goes for any effect.

j/k about jimis law hehe

[DougH]

I usually put the rangemaster in a separate loop from other fx. It doesn't play well with buffers before or after it. It probably works okay in front of a fuzz face and you could probably put them in the same loop. The RM essentially becomes the first stage of the amp, like any booster, so using time delay fx after it is useless IMO, unless you put them in the fx loop of your amp and you don't rely on power amp distortion.

That seems backwards to me Doug.  Delays always sound bad in FRONT of an amp unless the amp has lots of headroom and is ultra clean.  Therefore, to me, the delay will sound really bad in front of a RM because those delayed repeats will still be getting crushed by the RM just like the front of a gainy amp would.  I always run my RM first in my chain and my delays last and that way the delays stay clean.  This doesn't work with my Trainwrecks (not much sounds good in front of them really) but it works great with my old Bassmans and my white Showman which all have lots of headroom.

Andy

I'm not suggesting running the delay in front of the RM. I'm saying that delays don't really work in a signal path with a RM. In general, the best place for a delay is to mic the amp and then run that through a delay. Barring that, run the amp clean and put the delay at the end of the pedal chain or if the amp is a preamp-distorter you can probably put it in the fx loop.

The way I use the RM is to create distortion by boosting an amp that breaks up easily, so the distortion is really coming from the amp. The RM really becomes part of the amp. I think most people don't realize that, but it helps you work out your signal chain if you think of it that way. Inserting a delay between the RM and amp doesn't sound very good. Also, my delay has a buffered bypass and the RM doesn't work well with a low Z signal anywhere in the chain (before or after), in the way I use it. BTW, my ToneSource (brown source derivative) has the same problem.

[hairyandy]

I'm not suggesting running the delay in front of the RM. I'm saying that delays don't really work in a signal path with a RM. In general, the best place for a delay is to mic the amp and then run that through a delay. Barring that, run the amp clean and put the delay at the end of the pedal chain or if the amp is a preamp-distorter you can probably put it in the fx loop.

The way I use the RM is to create distortion by boosting an amp that breaks up easily, so the distortion is really coming from the amp. The RM really becomes part of the amp. I think most people don't realize that, but it helps you work out your signal chain if you think of it that way. Inserting a delay between the RM and amp doesn't sound very good. Also, my delay has a buffered bypass and the RM doesn't work well with a low Z signal anywhere in the chain (before or after), in the way I use it. BTW, my ToneSource (brown source derivative) has the same problem.

Gotcha.  Another way I've gotten around this issue with my Trainwreck Express and Liverpool, which have no headroom whatsoever and break up pretty much immediately, is to use my DIY Airbrake attenuator.  I added a line out to it and I run that signal back through the time-based stuff (delays and reverb) and then into a power amp and cab or something pretty clean like my Blonde Showman.  That way you have a wet/dry thing with two cabs and you can put the boost stuff early in the chain in front of the TW.

Andy

[liddokun]

If I remember correctly, the Keeley Fuzzhead is a variation of a RM feeding into a Fuzz Face type of circuit with a buffer that end. And I've heard one in the local music shop, it sounds pretty sweet to me.

[DougH]

Gotcha.  Another way I've gotten around this issue with my Trainwreck Express and Liverpool, which have no headroom whatsoever and break up pretty much immediately, is to use my DIY Airbrake attenuator.  I added a line out to it and I run that signal back through the time-based stuff (delays and reverb) and then into a power amp and cab or something pretty clean like my Blonde Showman.  That way you have a wet/dry thing with two cabs and you can put the boost stuff early in the chain in front of the TW.

Andy

Yeah, that's a good idea. I was working on something where I ran the mic signal through delays and etc and then give that to the soundman for the p.a, but it was tricky getting all the levels right. I like your wet/dry idea better, just using two amps.

[frank_p]

Gonna try this with my Hot-Plate this week.  Good idea !

[DougH]

I think it's time to add that line out to my attenuator that I have been meaning to do.

[caress]

my girlfriend runs:

wurlitzer 200a > RM > fuzz face > DL4 > pt80 > holy grail > ampeg gemini 1x15

sounds great...  the rangemaster has an input attenuator and a tone control (to get a little more lows) to get the wurlitzer to play well.

[frank_p]

The attenuator method works great.  Sounds REALLY good with the Rangemaster.  The best sound I got was with my Traynor 15 in. bass ported cab at the output. Like this :

Guitar ->Rangemaster-> Fender Princeton -> Hot Plate line out -> PA with graphic EQ (with delay and other effects in the effect loop) -> Traynor 15 in. ported cab.

Didn't try with the wah yet

Wonderful !  When I crank the Princeton, I cut the bass on the tube amp and give back the bass with the PA.  With smaller speaker or open cab, it sounded a bit fizzy. But now it's crunchy, creamy and punchy !

I am surely going to use this method now (at least for practice at home it's perfect).

I still have problems with the Fuzz Face.  Perhaps I should put some lower gain trannies in my DIY Fuzz Face...

[DougH]

I added the line-out to my attenuator and agree- the wet/dry method sounds great!

I never even got to the Rangemaster, but I'm certain it will sound good. I was using my 2W Dragonfly amp which gets plenty of distortion on its own- and cleans up with a twist of the guitar volume control. So I ran that into the attenuator, then a line to the 1x12 cab. Then the line-out went through my chorus/delay/roto-machine pedals into my SS amp. The SS amp had the para EQ tuned for a 100hz peak which adds a nice kick to the open back 1x12. It sounded really great and the difference between the two speakers is very cool. Enjoyed the stereoization of the fx too. With the attenuator and line-out volume control it was real easy to control levels of everything. I'll try it again with a tamer amp and the Rangemaster (and other boosters).

Thanks to Andy for suggesting this. I've heard of this before but never really knew how people set it up.

[hairyandy]

Thanks to Andy for suggesting this. I've heard of this before but never really knew how people set it up.

Nice.  Glad yer all having fun!  Lots of guys used variations of this idea with different amps in rack setups in the 80's.  The line out was a common amp mod and some amps even came with a line out from the factory.  God, could you imagine still lugging around a 16-space rack with a Crown DC-300 in the bottom of it?

Andy

[Ben N]

Long ago I did something like that with my late-70s Deluxe Reverb, which came with a line out, and a similar sized hybrid amp with an fx loop right between the SS preamp and the tube phase inverter. I ran the line out, somewhat padded down, through chorus & delay, including an Alesis Nanoverb, into the other amp's fx return. Sounded great. With a so-called "stereo" chorus (the kind that splits wet and dry into separate outputs), I just ran the wet signal into the slave.

[frank_p]

Thanks to Andy for suggesting this. I've heard of this before but never really knew how people set it up.

Nice.  Glad yer all having fun! 
Andy

Yes forgot to say: thanks Andy.
Playing with the EQ of the second amp and trying different cabs does make a good difference on how good it will sound.

Lots of guys used variations of this idea with different amps in rack setups in the 80's.  The line out was a common amp mod and some amps even came with a line out from the factory.  God, could you imagine still lugging around a 16-space rack with a Crown DC-300 in the bottom of it?

NIGHTMARE !  But that's why I said  -for home practice- .  Can not imagine carrying my tube amp, the PA system and the 15 in. speaker cab. for each practice neither...

But if you practice in a studio where they have a "sound system" you could bring a low power tube amp head (something light) and your effects and attenuator without a big backache !

[DougH]

The next thing I want to try is just using the amp as a "distortion pedal". Just use the attenuator as a load box and run the line-out through the fx, then tap off the stereo buss there to two different clean amps. The stereo processing of the tonecores is pretty good and it would be fun to put the "stereoization" in their hands instead of going wet/dry.

This would be a ridiculous amount of equipment to carry around.