Danelectro French Toast Mod?

[Joe Hart]

I'm looking for an octave up pedal (without fuzz). I read on line that you can disable the fuzz on the Dano French Toast, but all I can find about doing that is turning the fuzz knob down. Unfortunately according to some clips on YouTube, this seem to still have some fuzz to the sound. I will be using it for a clean guitar to simulate a 12-string for one part of a song. I don't really want to spend $150.00 for a Boss Super Shifter for one part of one song. Any thoughts? Thanks!
-Joe Hart

[alex frias]

What you suggest is close to impossible as the Dano FrenchToast and the pedal from wich it originates, the FoxxToneMachine, are monophoniceffects per si. And even if you play one note at a time with a very clean technique, the effect is based on some audio artifacts and far away from any digital pitch shifter.

IMHO, I find the using of octave up digital polyphonic effect added to the normal 6 string guitar sound nothing close to a 12 string guitar, it's interesting, I like it a lot, but it's light years away from that sound. Maybe using some sort of static chorus plus a bit of octave up effect...

[Joe Hart]

That's kind of what I thought. Oh well. Any suggestions? And I know that it won't sound like an actual 12-string, but we are doing a song that originally had acoustic 12-string, clean electric, and possibly a third guitar, and I am just trying to fill it in a bit. I have an old Digitech RP10, so I tried it out using the octave-up effect on it and it seems to work. But the RP10 just doesn't sound that great and to lug it around just for one sound...
-Joe Hart

[Mark Hammer]

The French Toast, and Foxx Tone Machine it clones, use diodes in two places.  They are used in the process of generating the doubling by separating the positive and negative half-cycles (D1/D2), and they are used again in simply generating fuzz clipping of the output (D3/D4).  http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/diagrams/ftmsc.gif.

You can lift one end of the D3/D4 diode pair and eliminate the overall clipping, however that will not yield a clean sound since D1/D2 introduce a bit of crossover distortion.  If a person wanted to totally elimnate any diode-based clipping in one action, you would want to use a DPDT toggle or footswitch.  Three things need to happen simultaneously:

1) D3/D4 have to be lifted from ground.
2) The connection to D1 has to be broken to eliminate doubling.
3) D2 has to be bypassed, though this can be done by simply shunting it.

That can all be done by using one set of contacts to disable the clipping pair, and using the other pair of contacts to alternate between enabling D2 and connecting D1, or disabling D1 plus shunting D2.

[Joe Hart]

Mark, would I lose the octave up effect if I did what you mention (messing with D1/D2)? And if so, would the crossover distortion really be that objectionable (of course open to interpretation)? I mean, I don't need a crystal clear tone, but I don't really want a "distorted" sound either.

Thanks!
-Joe Hart

[alex frias]

If you want to play chords, in blocks or arpeggiated ones, with it wishing it doesn't output a ring-modulated kind of sound, forget it! No miracle here!

[Mark Hammer]

Mark, would I lose the octave up effect if I did what you mention (messing with D1/D2)? And if so, would the crossover distortion really be that objectionable (of course open to interpretation)? I mean, I don't need a crystal clear tone, but I don't really want a "distorted" sound either.

Thanks!
-Joe Hart

No.  The suggested wiring is one that still permits octaving.  Lifting the clipping diodes is something that can be done on its own without any interaction whatsoever with the octaving function. 

As for the octave/no-octave switching, this was something I suggested to someone here a while back.  They had noted that there was an annoying quality to the sound when they turned the octaving off.  Looking at the schematic, I realized that what remained in placed when octaving is off was introducing a bit of crossover distortion, but more importantly, not allowing the entire waveform through, simply because of that one stinking diode.  Happily, the diode is right at the point where D1 and D2 meet.  If you were to wire up a SPDT toggle, with the common at the point where D1 and D2 are supposed to meet, then in one positionthe toggle wold connect D1 and re-engage D2 (yielding octaving), and in the other position it would disengage D1, and shunt D2, yielding an untampered signal to hit the clipping diodes further downstream.  In theory, this should getyou a better quality of fuzz.  The FTM is my personal favourite for octaving, but I have never found the quality of the fuzz alone to be all that pleasing.  I have one of mine sitting open with wires hanging out.  I should give the mod a try myself this evening and let you know.

[Processaurus]

The best realistic imitation of a 12 string I've tried on a 6 string has nothing to do with pedals (though the PS-5/PS-3/Whammy digital detune is not totally terrible, ftm is just, well, not really right), but by just playing octave chords for low single note lines, or tuning the top 2 strings to the same note, and playing them at the same time to get the doubled string sound?

[alex frias]

A non-orthopediaec solution: Gibson SG DoubleNeck, or a lighter Dano...

Roland VG gave me a good atempt, oh, now I remember: Line 6 Variax guitars... I tested in a shop but it impressed me at that time...

[Uma Floresta]

You could get the Behringer PS-5 clone. Supposedly it's pretty good.

[elbandito]

No.  The suggested wiring is one that still permits octaving.  Lifting the clipping diodes is something that can be done on its own without any interaction whatsoever with the octaving function. 

As for the octave/no-octave switching, this was something I suggested to someone here a while back.  They had noted that there was an annoying quality to the sound when they turned the octaving off.  Looking at the schematic, I realized that what remained in placed when octaving is off was introducing a bit of crossover distortion, but more importantly, not allowing the entire waveform through, simply because of that one stinking diode.  Happily, the diode is right at the point where D1 and D2 meet.  If you were to wire up a SPDT toggle, with the common at the point where D1 and D2 are supposed to meet, then in one positionthe toggle wold connect D1 and re-engage D2 (yielding octaving), and in the other position it would disengage D1, and shunt D2, yielding an untampered signal to hit the clipping diodes further downstream.  In theory, this should getyou a better quality of fuzz.  The FTM is my personal favourite for octaving, but I have never found the quality of the fuzz alone to be all that pleasing.  I have one of mine sitting open with wires hanging out.  I should give the mod a try myself this evening and let you know.

Any update on this mod? I'm expecting a French Toast in the mail soon for messing around purposes... it'd be cool to try this out.

[Mark Hammer]

The mod works as described.  Some folks I have loaned mine to like it, some don't.  The series diode I bypass provides some cross-over distortion and also eliminates one half of the signal, making the amplitude modest (but relatively matched to the octave output level).  Fortunately it is possible to have your Toast and eat it too, although it might be tricky with surface mount components on a small board.

here is what is involved.  Use a 3-position (on-off-on) SPDT toggle.  The common (center lug) goes to the point where the two diodes would normally meet.  One outside lug is wired to the octave-enable diode, as per the existing switch.  The other outside lug is wired to the far side (input end) of the remaining diode.  In the middle position, the octave-enabling diode is not connected.  In one side position, that same diode IS connected, permitting octaving.  In the opposite position, the octave-diode path is broken BUT the toggle connects the two ends of the remaining diode via straight wire (i.e., bypasses it).  So, you get the standard FTM non-octave in the centre position, the octave in one side position, and a different non-octave in the other side position.

Note that the added type of non-octave has more output level (because the entire signal passes), and has more bass and less sizzle than the standard non-octave sound.  Note, however, that there are additional diodes further along the signal path that will still clip the signal, so removing that remaining diode will NOT yield a clean sound, just a different sort of dirty.

[hervefeelip]

Would it be possible for you Mark to make some soundclips to hear the result of your mod?

I have the same problem as you. I was thinking of a DPDT to have a real bypass because i have the same feeling as you : half of the signal seems to be off when not in octave mode, so this mod would be a solution for me too.

[Mark Hammer]

Sorry.  Not really set up at the moment to do it.  Gimme a few months.

I'll just say it is worth doing, and really does not involve very much for the return on investment.

A "deluxe" FTM/French Toast would involve modding the octave-select toggle to do what I've described, and also adding a diode-lift toggle for the second pair used further along the circuit to produce clipping.  There would be a lot of different tones available.

[pinkjimiphoton]

What you suggest is close to impossible as the Dano FrenchToast and the pedal from wich it originates, the FoxxToneMachine, are monophoniceffects per si. And even if you play one note at a time with a very clean technique, the effect is based on some audio artifacts and far away from any digital pitch shifter.

IMHO, I find the using of octave up digital polyphonic effect added to the normal 6 string guitar sound nothing close to a 12 string guitar, it's interesting, I like it a lot, but it's light years away from that sound. Maybe using some sort of static chorus plus a bit of octave up effect...

IF you're not the only person playing guitar, and IF you're "strumming" mostly, AND if you can get away with playing fairly distorted power chords,
i've had good luck using a bobtavia, of all things.
roll the guitar volume down a lot, and it still gets harmonics, sounds vaguely electric 12-stringish. that's the cheap sleazy way. i used it a lot in the bones when comping on beatles songs etc to make it sound vaguely more beatle-ish.

pitch shifters sound shitty when pressed to service for this...they aren't designed for polyphonic input...some can track it, some can't at ALL..

digitech whammys can track it fairly well, unbelieveably.

best bet i've found is a roland guitar synth with a hex pickup. you can usually have two voices per string. if you use one voice just barely detuned from the straight guitar with a very fast attack, and a "guitarish" patch with a fast attack as well, you can tune the bottom strings up an octave, and have the unison e and b.  that's the best way i've found to sim a 12 string... and you can put it thru regular effects pretty much and get away with it. (sounds nice with fuzz guitar and "clean" 12 string)...it's the only way to get polyphonic....except


the line 6 variax. steve howe uses them live, for 12 string, electric 12 string, sitar even. steve HOWE. some may balk...that guy is probably the best living overall guitarist on the planet, and i believe if they're good enough for him, that's one hell of a statement.

he uses line 6 amps and pedalboards now, too, live.

to me that stuff all sounds like dreck, so either he is a great programmer, or most of it's in your fingers.

sorry for the babble...good luck bro in the search.

i look forward to your demo down the road, mark...i've gotta french toast, i love the octave, but the distortion's a little over the top for my usual tastes.

[Greenmachine]

Hmm, never heard of the Variax before.  Just checked it out and that'd be fun to have kicking around says I.

[pinkjimiphoton]

i've seen yes probably 40 times in the last 40 years or so..
and i've heard steve howe play EVERYTHING.
and the variax sounds better than some of the things he used to use the real thing of. very clean.

i DO miss the coral sitar, but once ya add effects to the variax, it sounded just like the album. i was impressed!

[Greenmachine]

I think it's really interesting that a guy who's had the chance to play the best "authentic" gear that's out there doesn't mind going to digital effects and amps.  But I suppose that happens a lot these days.  Perhaps there's a tradeoff involved too when you're setting up a tour rig ... simplicity, low-risk gear (loss, break down, theft, replaceability).  I dunno, just speculating and ruminating.

[pinkjimiphoton]

fwiw, i've used digital stuff since the 80's. people always come up asking me what kinda tubes are in my amp when i'm using my behringer v-ampire. i laugh my ass off. sounds more like a nice marshall than most of the marshall's i've played.
if you program them right, you can get some very authentic sounds out of digital stuff. and often, cleaner, with less noise and hash and rfi crap.
check this video...excuse the lamitude of it...but listen to the guitar. tell me what kinda amp and effects i'm using:

man...i was over 500lbs here. i'm a shadow of that now.

and yes, i'm playing thru the behringer. no effects, just guitar and amp. the marshall half stack was from the opening act.

[petey twofinger]

adrian belew has the variax circuitry in his signature model parker fly .