How come the drill bit always jams and then the chuck spins? ARGHHH

Started by tehfunk, February 08, 2009, 07:34:06 PM

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R.G.

Not really. What you're dealing with is the preferences of the aluminum for how it prefers to be drilled.

Each metal and alloy has different characteristics, which make cutting it require a slightly different type of tool edge geometry, angle of attack, and need for lubrication or cooling during cutting.

That means the drill matters (well, duh, R.G.!). For aluminum you need a sharp bit with at least a 7 degree positive rake. Most new drill bits have that. Aluminum alloys have a habit of sticking to the edge of a cutting tool. That's why you need a lubricant which helps the deformed chip stay cool and slide past the edge without bonding. If the chip starts building up, you 're now cutting aluminum with an aluminum edge, which is - uh, trash.

For each metal, there is an almost optimum (almost!) combination of feed (how deeply the edge is set into the metal and speed (forward motion of the edge into the metal) that will cut with the best compromise of low power, low tool wear, and speed of accomplishing the job. Rotational speed helps because if you turn slowly you get too deep a cut. Faster rotational speeds help keep the edge speed relative to the material up, and helps you cut a modest-thickness chip, which is easier on the drill, the material, and the operator.

Aluminum in particular should never be cut/drilled unlubricated. Brass, which seems similar, needs no lubrication, but does need the cutting edge to be a zero degree rake - yep, no knife edge at all, the cutting face is perpendicular to the motion. Otherwise the brass grabs the drill bit.

Speaking of which - that's what's happening when the drill bit spins the chuck. The material resistance torque is larger than the holding torque on the bit back at the drill. This can be from lack of lubrication, a dull drill bit, a dented, burred drill bit shank, or a bad-condition chuck which does not hold the drill well in spite of being tightened down. Aluminum is known for grabbing bits. Especially something like a tap which you're using to thread your newly drilled holes. The soft aluminum grabs the tap, which is steel hard enough to cut glass, and the torque shatters the tap, leaving the hardened steel bit in the hole. Now how you gonna get that out?
R.G.

In response to the questions in the forum - PCB Layout for Musical Effects is available from The Book Patch. Search "PCB Layout" and it ought to appear.

David

R.G., how about the steel used in the covers for RACO boxes?

R.G.

Use a drill press. Sharp bit, lubricate, moderately high rpm. They're work hardened cold finished steel sheet, so they're not as hard as tool steel but are harder than most mild steels. Keep the speed up and put a drop of oil in the centerpunch mark. Don't even try to do this without clamping the box down. Using a hand drill is OK, if that's all you have, but clamp the box down to do it. It's  hard to play guitar when you're nursing a gash in your stomach or missing a finger.

Drill presses can be had at harbor freight that will do this for under $60 every day, and under $50 on sale. They will fit on a bench.

R.G.

In response to the questions in the forum - PCB Layout for Musical Effects is available from The Book Patch. Search "PCB Layout" and it ought to appear.

tehfunk

Thanks everyone this has been a great help, one final question where, how often, and when do I apply whatever lubricant I use. Thanks again.
-Sam
Carvin CT6M > diystompboxes.com > JCM800 4010

The tools of the artist give you a chance to twist and bend the laws of nature and to cut-up and reshape the fabric of reality - John Frusciante

jefe

One good sized drop on the workpiece, before you start drilling, will do the trick. Any more would probably be overkill. The only time you need to re-apply lube is when you're drilling though something thicker.

R.G.

Nobody bit on how to get a hardened tap out of aluminum. It's easy.

You put the piece in a plastic tub, build a modelling clay dam around the hole, and then drop in drops of red fuming nitric acid. The RFN eats the steel and merely causes the aluminum to form a protective oxide layer. The tap melts out and leaves the hole.

Of course, RFN is kinda hazardous in other ways... don't try this at home.
R.G.

In response to the questions in the forum - PCB Layout for Musical Effects is available from The Book Patch. Search "PCB Layout" and it ought to appear.

LEON.01

Quote from: R.G. on February 10, 2009, 07:56:12 AM
Nobody bit on how to get a hardened tap out of aluminum. It's easy.

You put the piece in a plastic tub, build a modelling clay dam around the hole, and then drop in drops of red fuming nitric acid. The RFN eats the steel and merely causes the aluminum to form a protective oxide layer. The tap melts out and leaves the hole.

Of course, RFN is kinda hazardous in other ways... don't try this at home.

Me and some of the lads in work have made a couple of tap removers! we're always snapping the things! Just a little 2 prong bit that fits in a drill, the 2 prongs go down the 'bite' grooves of the tap and away you go!
I'm a steel erector, molding with clay and using acid 200 foot in the air in rain and 30 mile an hour wind aint happening, so we came up with that. Alot quicker too!  ;D

R.G.

No doubt!
I think you may be using bigger taps than I am. Something tells me that you're not worried about getting a tap out of a 2mm or 0.138" hole. :icon_biggrin:

The smaller taps not only break more easily, they are not strong enough to withstand the fingered-easy-out approach. EDM works great, but then you're not going to use EDM 200 feet in the air in rain and a 30mph wind, either.  :icon_lol:
R.G.

In response to the questions in the forum - PCB Layout for Musical Effects is available from The Book Patch. Search "PCB Layout" and it ought to appear.

petemoore

  I was the muffler bolt 'expert'...
  The wide/short jaw vise grips are set to the exact right depth [takes practice to turn the wheel just the right amount to form flats on sides of a hot shank] go into the freezer in prep for grabbing the small protrusion [hopefully] of broken manifold bolt there is left to work with, this bolt is often further rounded by mauling during attempts to free it without the necessary technology:
  The entire chunk of metal with the imbedded threaded broken bolt shank is heated cherry red hot after the Vise Grips have frozen. The frozen vise grips form a flat edge on each side of the near molten metal shank by shaping it with their fierce grip while it's hot.
  9 seconds later the redness of the shank has disappeared into the threaded hole of the manifold, and a slight torque can be applied to make the 'click' or 'screech' different temperature metals make as the shanks is backed out.
  Theory is that the shank contracts slightly [but extremely forcefully] and breaks the rust-weld as the cold of the vise grips thermal mass is transferred to the bolt shank quick/manifold later, offering the period of 'temperature difference induced' loosness which allows the bolt shank to then be easily freed from it's crusty old manifold-captor.
    PM.
 
Convention creates following, following creates convention.

DavidRavenMoon

Quote from: R.G. on February 09, 2009, 06:32:22 PM
Use a drill press.

I was just going to post that small bench top drill presses can be had for not much money.  It's really a lot better, and safer than using a hand drill on metal enclosures.

I picked up a small Chinese made drill press from Homier.com for about $40. It's perfect for things like drilling holes in pedals.

And keyless chucks are fine for some things, but I wouldn't use one for drilling in aluminum with the size bits needed for pots and jacks.
SGD Lutherie
Hand wound pickups, and electronics.
www.sgd-lutherie.com
www.myspace.com/davidschwab

Tantalum7

Quote from: R.G. on February 09, 2009, 03:48:55 PM
Not really. What you're dealing with is the preferences of the aluminum for how it prefers to be drilled.

Each metal and alloy has different characteristics, which make cutting it require a slightly different type of tool edge geometry, angle of attack, and need for lubrication or cooling during cutting.

Absolutely true, but in the course of every day events, you won't have the optimal geometry or be capable of the proper speeds and feeds, but that's okay: for low volume, off the cuff machining, anything sharp will work if you're not expecting perfection.  If you have to drill thousands of holes, and downtime to change dull and broken tooling means money off your bottom line, then you want the best cutting geometry, the optimal speeds, feeds, and ample lubrication.  I've drilled Inconels with a hand drill, without lubrication, and without a split point bit.  It works--for a couple of holes before the bit cries out in anguish. 

I've used the Nitric acid removal method too, but only for Stainless.  Works great.

tehfunk

Quote from: DavidRavenMoon on February 10, 2009, 12:17:15 PM
Quote from: R.G. on February 09, 2009, 06:32:22 PM
Use a drill press.

I was just going to post that small bench top drill presses can be had for not much money.  It's really a lot better, and safer than using a hand drill on metal enclosures.

I picked up a small Chinese made drill press from Homier.com for about $40. It's perfect for things like drilling holes in pedals.

And keyless chucks are fine for some things, but I wouldn't use one for drilling in aluminum with the size bits needed for pots and jacks.
are you implying that your drill press doesn't have a keyless chuck?
Carvin CT6M > diystompboxes.com > JCM800 4010

The tools of the artist give you a chance to twist and bend the laws of nature and to cut-up and reshape the fabric of reality - John Frusciante

R.G.

He meant "clueless Chuck". His friend Charles is kind of a space cadet about mechanical stuff.

:icon_lol:
R.G.

In response to the questions in the forum - PCB Layout for Musical Effects is available from The Book Patch. Search "PCB Layout" and it ought to appear.

Tantalum7

I've only seen one or two drill presses that come standard with a keyless chuck, and these were mostly micro drill presses.  You can get very high quality keyless chucks for drill presses (Albrechts are nice), but expect to pay a few hundred dollars for them and then another $50-100 for an arbor to fit it to the morse taper of your drill press.  I prefer keyed chucks, myself, but the keyless  ones certainly are handy. 

R.G.

Quote from: Tantalum7 on February 10, 2009, 11:18:33 PM
I've only seen one or two drill presses that come standard with a keyless chuck, and these were mostly micro drill presses.  You can get very high quality keyless chucks for drill presses (Albrecht's are nice), but expect to pay a few hundred dollars for them and then another $50-100 for an arbor to fit it to the morse taper of your drill press.  I prefer keyed chucks, myself, but the keyless  ones certainly are handy. 
One of the Harbor Freight bench drill presses comes with a cluel...er, keyless chuck.
This one: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38119 requires a key.
This one: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44505 is keyless. The keyless is always about $10-$15 more.

The prices are up about $10, and these are the non-sale prices. The sale prices are about $45 and $55 last time I noticed them on sale.

A word about tools.
I am an addict. I LOVE tools. I could never see why people laughed at that aspect of Tim the tool man. As soon as I had graduated college, and received a few pay checks to recover from the money hemorrhage, I bought a floor standing drill press. I've now had that press for 34 years and dragged it with me every step. Good tools are forever. There aren't many things you can say that about.
R.G.

In response to the questions in the forum - PCB Layout for Musical Effects is available from The Book Patch. Search "PCB Layout" and it ought to appear.

tehfunk

Quote from: R.G. on February 11, 2009, 10:40:44 AM
Quote from: Tantalum7 on February 10, 2009, 11:18:33 PM
I've only seen one or two drill presses that come standard with a keyless chuck, and these were mostly micro drill presses.  You can get very high quality keyless chucks for drill presses (Albrecht's are nice), but expect to pay a few hundred dollars for them and then another $50-100 for an arbor to fit it to the morse taper of your drill press.  I prefer keyed chucks, myself, but the keyless  ones certainly are handy. 
One of the Harbor Freight bench drill presses comes with a cluel...er, keyless chuck.
This one: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=38119 requires a key.
This one: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44505 is keyless. The keyless is always about $10-$15 more.

The prices are up about $10, and these are the non-sale prices. The sale prices are about $45 and $55 last time I noticed them on sale.

A word about tools.
I am an addict. I LOVE tools. I could never see why people laughed at that aspect of Tim the tool man. As soon as I had graduated college, and received a few pay checks to recover from the money hemorrhage, I bought a floor standing drill press. I've now had that press for 34 years and dragged it with me every step. Good tools are forever. There aren't many things you can say that about.
Interesting, well I am quite the opposite in the knowledge of tools, I like them, I just don't know much about them, I'm only getting started. So I was looking up keyed chuck versus keyless chuck, but I don't get how they are much different, they look quite similar, except the keyed chuck requires the key to manually tighten the chuck? I don't know, can you explain the difference between the two, and how the keyed grips the drill bit better? do you have to use different bits for keyed chucks? Would I still be able to use the round shanked bits? Thanks.
Carvin CT6M > diystompboxes.com > JCM800 4010

The tools of the artist give you a chance to twist and bend the laws of nature and to cut-up and reshape the fabric of reality - John Frusciante

R.G.

Keyed chucks are only different from keyless in that you don't need a key to tighten/loosen. Either one, if properly made and not abused, will grip a drill well enough to hold it against drilling torques. Both use round shanked bits. Keyless is more convenient, no key to lose. I've always preferred keyed, though.

Once a chuck of either type has been worn badly, or has some internal problems, you may not be able to tighten it well enough to hold a drill.

In your case, any of the problems may have occurred: dull bit, no lubrication, worn chuck.
R.G.

In response to the questions in the forum - PCB Layout for Musical Effects is available from The Book Patch. Search "PCB Layout" and it ought to appear.

DavidRavenMoon

R.G., I feel the same way about tools!  I still have a floor standing drill press that I keep at a shared workshop.  I use the bench top at home.  I used to have a full wood working shop with a band saw, jointer, plainer, a bent sander... I sold most of them some time ago when I took a hiatus from building guitars.  Wish I had kept them!

I still have a Craftsman router from the late 70's!  They made them good back then, it still works like a charm.  That was the first good router I bought.  Since then I get better quality tools. Now I mostly use Porter-Cable routers.

Recently I bought one of those micro table saws for model makers.  Boy that comes in handy for cutting PCB.   :icon_biggrin:

I also have a full set of antique Stanley wood planes, and a lot of hand tools.  Some of them belonged to my dad.  Like you said, good tools last forever if you take care of them.
SGD Lutherie
Hand wound pickups, and electronics.
www.sgd-lutherie.com
www.myspace.com/davidschwab

petemoore

  Think of your *body from a *tools-eye and *workpieces point of view at all times when working with them, avoid any sudden, dumb interactions by planning through all the possible scenarios before the work is started.
Convention creates following, following creates convention.

Paul Marossy

I've been using the same Uni-Bit for at least seven years now, and have drilled hundreds of holes thru steel and aluminum enclosures without using any lubrication at all. And it's still going strong...  :icon_razz: