What kind of caps do you use?

Ripthorn · February 12, 2009, 11:44:29 PM

I have been using all ceramic caps recently, but I am wondering what kind you guys use and why? Are there caps that are "optimal" for audio? I am looking for something affordable but perhaps better quality for some "higher end" projects I will be making soon. So come on, spread the love and tell me what caps you use.

R.G. · February 13, 2009, 12:12:42 AM

Polyester film gets you most of the way to nirvana.

yeeshkul · February 13, 2009, 08:20:28 AM

Panasonic Low Voltage Polyester Film - i just ordered a handful from smallbear

Andi · February 13, 2009, 08:44:52 AM

Poly film, tantalum and electrolytics depending on the value I want. Very occasional ceramics for the teeny values.

rebelred · February 13, 2009, 08:51:09 AM

I'm just fixing to get my feet wet in the DIY effects. How are the mylar caps like the ones in the value pack from Futurlec for use in audio projects?

R.G. · February 13, 2009, 08:51:52 AM

Mylar = trade name for polyester.

rebelred · February 13, 2009, 08:58:53 AM

Quote from: R.G. on February 13, 2009, 08:51:52 AM
Mylar = trade name for polyester.

ah. Thanks for the clarification

jefe · February 13, 2009, 09:02:46 AM

Quote from: rebelred on February 13, 2009, 08:51:09 AM
I'm just fixing to get my feet wet in the DIY effects. How are the mylar caps like the ones in the value pack from Futurlec for use in audio projects?

I started out with a mylar cap value pack from Futurlec, they work fine.

Ripthorn · February 13, 2009, 09:19:23 AM

Thanks for the responses so far. What about polystyrene? Is there anything that they are good for? Also, does anyone use paper in oil for effects, or are those mostly for "authentic" tube amp projects?

R.G. · February 13, 2009, 09:38:13 AM

I believe there is an article in the FAQ about capacitor types. I know I've typed in a rundown on types a couple of times.

Polystyrene is a high-quality insulator useful for high precision, low leakage applications. There is little real audible difference in them and other plastic film types other than to "golden ear" possessors who also hear other things that can't be heard by normal people. The values are generally much smaller than polyester.

"Paper in oil" are - if you can find them - generally much larger per capacitance value than other types. PIO caps were the first power capacitor type, and have become more rare. I doubt that there are any real PIO types being manufactured any more, the nominally PIO types really being paper plus polypropylene film insulation.

liquids · February 13, 2009, 09:45:59 AM

Okay, I don't think I hear any of that cap mojo yet. For example I was really scared about what caps to use when I had my '68 Super Reverb re-capped, and the tech said the orange drops were higher quality and tolerance. The forums said the yellow mallorys had vintage tone. I don't know and had to make a choice. In the end, the amp sounded great before and after, and it sounds like me when I plug and and sounds like my friend when he plugs in. So who knows.

That being said, at the 9v-24v level, if I need a high end filter going to ground, I use ceramic caps, where anything they filter is going to ground and in theory not affecting tone in any perceived "grainy" way. Actually, if you think too hard about it, using 'grainy' ceramic caps as filters to ground should "de-grain" your tone and make it smoother than any other caps....right?

When I opened up my vintage phase 45 to rehouse it last week, I laughed as it's full of 30+ year old '104' ceramic caps. I'm going to leave it that way, don't tell anybody.

That being said, I didn't hear enough difference between the massive 60-70 cent Silver Mica caps vs the normal sized, 10-15 cent, Panasonic low voltage poly film caps for the pf range. So I'm sticking with the Panasonic ones without being too far more expensive than ceramics and over those huge Silver Mica caps and not loosing sleep. That's only part of why though. There is a bit of of poo-pooing ceramics, and sure, I'm skeptical about that. But I'm not using them much either, it turns out. More so because I have trouble getting ceramics with their tiny little leads to work on my breadboard! The Panasonic ECQB's have standard leads and work for both needs more easily. In the end, to simplify and reduce the clutter, once I get through the stuff I have laying around, I will probably stick with the poly films/metal films for lower pf values for their all around, tonally inoffensive, affordable versatility.

For standard values from 102-104 (.001uF-.1uF) I see nothing wrong with the Panasonic ECQBs, again, sure, and SmallBear has them, to boot. But I'm not sure why I'd use them over the 50V ECQV Panasonics, if given the choice, such as when ordering from Digi-Key. They're the same voltage rating, same tolerance, and equally affordable, but significantly smaller.

Some may have comments about cap 'tone' with the metal film. I admit I can't speak to that as I've not A/Bed them at all, but am very happy with my builds thus far, and do consider myself a tone freak.

For me, smaller on the board can be an important issue, because I use a lot of .1uF, and its taken a fair amount of ugly finagling to get the ECQB .1uF cap in tight spots. The http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P4525-ND ECQV .1uF pictured here is about half the thickness and half the height, and a really good price. If you absolutely must have a non-polarized 1uF, the same series has this to offer: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P4675-ND, it's a larger box style, for about .35 cents on down as bulk increases. I believe effects connection carries these, to note. They're "metal film" caps rather than poly film.

For electrolytic, the Panasonic ECG series http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P993-ND again seems nice and small compared to what Small Bear carries, so I'll probably stick with this series. the 1uF is under 8 cents each! You typically have to buy ten of these per order, but even if not, you might as well as there is a significant price drop if you buy ten over just singles, and ten is really not that many, long term. They also have a tiny .68uF cap available in this series if you really want to try that stock-value Marshall preamp thing with your JFEt circuits, without the expense, or size, or trouble of finding a .68uF Poly or Metal Film cap. Score!

Last but not least, I opened my FoxRox Octron the other day, and was surprised and delighted to notice that it seems like in many cases, caps from the same series I mentioned above were being used a lot, if not exclusively, so that was comforting. It's a lot of components, so I imagine component size was a big factor, as it is for nearly all of us and a good number of builds.

Most of all, I use what I have, and order when I need it in the framework of the place I'm ordering from. You know, cheap parts from another source are nearly always more expensive if you factor in the additional shipping over 'expensive' parts from the place your already placing an order with. And likewise, a cap I have right now ALWAYS has "better tone" right now than the any other cap that I don't--it passes a signal, right now, while the one I don't have in hand doesn't even pass a signal, let alone "good tone;" at least not for a week or two.

After reading over this, I felt need to mention that I have no connection with Panasonic, other than finding their parts sensible and meeting my needs after looking around a bit. Hope this helps you!

liquids · February 13, 2009, 10:04:06 AM

Quote from: rebelred on February 13, 2009, 08:51:09 AM
I'm just fixing to get my feet wet in the DIY effects. How are the mylar caps like the ones in the value pack from Futurlec for use in audio projects?

I ordered the .1uF from futurlec as I'm using that value a plenty. Futurlec issues aside (for the moment) they seem fine. I'm using them for breadboarding where I have more room, as they're significantly bigger than the already large .1uF ECQ-Bs I got from Smallbear.

On Futurlec, if you click on the "paper sheet" to the right of the component, it gives you some information if you know how to read it. It will link you here, for instance http://futurlec.com/Capacitors/C100UM.shtml For caps, it gives tolerance, lead spacing, height, etc. On that one you'll see this in the info listed: Accuracy: ±10%, Body Width - 9mm, Body Height - 10mm, Pin Width - 6mm. That's the stuff that matters to me, for reference. Grab your metric ruler and compare. If it's your first order and you don't have any said caps for reference the measurements are a bit abstract, what can you do (Order from Small Bear and you'll be safe!) but if you have any parts on hand already, measure them and you'll be able to compare, for reference. This does take time and slows down your ordering prcoess, but it's a necessary evil at first.

I don't think quality is an issue with parts at Futurlec. They're just a distributor in Asia. Mylar, as mentioned above, is polyester.

Okay, about futurlec: I gotta say, seriously, the cost per part is really not that much higher at Digi-Key or Mouser, or Jameco if you're in the USA. SmallBear is nto that much more than that if you order in tens. I find Jameco and Mouser's websites to be less user friendly. SmallBear is SmallBear. They all have learning curves.

Most of all --- the wait time for Futurlec is absolutely atrocious! Two weeks minimum, and that is a long time to me. That is, if they don't lie to you and say that it shipped and will come any day, two weeks after you ordered, and then only two weeks later respond to your second e-mail and tell you that really, sorry, it hasn't shipped, one of your parts is actually back-ordered.

I tried it a few times, and the ridiculous is not worth the pennies saved, to me, if youre in the US. If it doesn't frustrate you, all power to you and your wallet. Me, I wish someone had showed me around on Digi-Key. I still can't swing with Mouser. Anyone who is ordering for the first time, and simply turning away from Digi-Key because of the massive overwhelming amount of stuff available on their website, PM me and I will happily help you find what you are looking for. I like helping and wish someone could have done this for me - would have saved a lot of frustration a few months ago.

petemoore · February 13, 2009, 10:05:06 AM

Polyester film gets you most of the way to nirvana.
That's where we want to be.
Don't go there, it is expensieve and rather snobbish and terribly boring once you actually get there, mostly it's that you only think you are there, some question whether it actually exists, others claim they have it for sale...

sfx · February 13, 2009, 10:28:43 AM

Quote from: liquids on February 13, 2009, 10:04:06 AM
Most of all --- the wait time for Futurlec is absolutely atrocious! Two weeks is a long time. That is, if they don't lie to you and say that it shipped, and only a month late tell you that really, sorry, one of your parts is backordered. I tried it a few times, and the ridiculous is not worth the pennies saved, to me, if your in the US. I wish someone had showed me Digi-Key. Anyone who is ordering for the first time, and simply turning away from Digi-Key because of the massive overwhelming amount of stuff available on their website, PM me and I will happily help you find what you are looking for. I like helping and wish someone could have done this for me - would have saved a lot of frustration a few months ago.

Yep, I've ordered a few times from Futurlec. The first arrived slowly but without issues otherwise. The second I had lots of trouble. When I shipment arrived I noticed it was missing some parts so I emailed and informed them. Their response was to check the envelope again. (?) Then the told me that the parts missing were actually backordered and would ship in a couple days once they got the parts from another warehouse. Well, a couple days turned into over month so I finally contacted them again to see what was up and they gave me some other excuse... Never got those parts.

I'm not ordering from them again. I'd rather pay a bit more and get my order without issue in a week or less from Digikey or similar.

Andi · February 13, 2009, 12:19:20 PM

I bought myself a small bag (about a dozen) of those silvered mylar caps, but I've been too scared to use them in anything - the circuit I had in mind is still changing each time I build it.

liquids · February 13, 2009, 12:32:47 PM

I know! I felt the same way when I had one kicking around for my first BSIAB. I used it, but then built another. When I realized they were 4x the size and 4x the price of other caps, I sort of wished I hadn't ordered it, because I'd rather leave well enough alone, you know?

What's funny is, since I only bought one, but built two, and decided I didn't care, the other one doesn't have a Silver Mica. Of course both sound the same, and yet ever so slightly different. And we're talking really slightly, especially considering large pot tolerance differences, putting knobs on by hand, and not even attempting to match JFETs between the two pedals for idential gain, frequency response, etc. I still think they're nearly identical.

I hadn't been thinking about it, but now that I did, I'm going to have to rip the silver mica out when I do some upgrades to that one next week, so that I can't attribute all the minute sonic differences I currently hear exclusively to the silver mica 'mojo' vs the polyester cap in the other. That is, it will also give me another chance to listen to hear if I notice any differences. Maybe I'll hear it.

Uh...which one is supposed to be "smoother" sounding anyway? If all else where equal (and it isnt, as per above) the Silver Mica one is "darker" / "smoother." I have to know which one is supposed to sound better before I listen, so I know what to listen for.

Blindfolded of course...HA!

R.G. · February 13, 2009, 12:39:57 PM

I wonder what the tolerances of all the other parts do to the sound?

Bensnap · February 13, 2009, 12:57:47 PM

Quote from: petemoore on February 13, 2009, 10:05:06 AM
Polyester film gets you most of the way to nirvana.
That's where we want to be.
Don't go there, it is expensieve and rather snobbish and terribly boring once you actually get there, mostly it's that you only think you are there, some question whether it actually exists, others claim they have it for sale...

Couldn't say it better.

earthtonesaudio · February 13, 2009, 01:34:47 PM

For general purpose stuff, I prefer multilayer ceramic for signal, tantalum for bypassing. But for time-based effects, the only kind of capacitor I'll use is Flux.

jefe · February 13, 2009, 02:01:46 PM

Quote from: earthtonesaudio on February 13, 2009, 01:34:47 PM
For general purpose stuff, I prefer multilayer ceramic for signal, tantalum for bypassing. But for time-based effects, the only kind of capacitor I'll use is Flux.

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What kind of caps do you use?