Blind Pedal Shootout on YouTube

[reverbie]

RG i will take you up on your offer if you are serious and design you an easy straightforward credible experiment testing your brands pedals against keeley, fulltone, klon, and whoever else    It would be my honor.

FrankP..."These guys are playing two roles at the same time.  Can it really be sincere ?"...Conflict-of-Interest.

Absolutely not in my opinion....if the intention of the video was an unbiased shootout, there wouldnt be the advert for Visual at the beginning and end. The burden of proof is on the company that posts a "blind pedal shootout" as an advert for their own pedals. Surely Visual knew that some people would be skeptical. Like I already said, why not hire an independant thrid party experimenter like a million other companies do? I liked the videos and don't know Bob's intention but considering that none of these are even original circuits in the first place, I'm gonna lean towards my gut skepticism here.

What was the motivation in the first place? Why do you have to compare your pedals against only the chosen ones...klon, fulltone, keeley....maybe it has something to do with the fact that their customers are in the same market as Visual customers and you want their business? There is nothing wrong with that, just saying.

companies hire independent third parties for credible experiments and even hide their sponsoring identities knowing that scrutiny would surely follow.

RG..."As a personal observation, I find that the words "i hate to be..." can often be interpreted as "it gives me no displeasure to announce that ..."

no actually its my way of saying "if no one else is gonna kick the elephant in the room, then i guess i will"

...  "I also have the feeling that because we all know R.G. (and it is him who is presenting the experiment on DIYstompboxes), we tend to forget those points and because we know that he is a helpful guy and we are accustomed to his sincerity, we see the clips with an other eye than those who go directly on Youtube to see them"

brilliant. thank you.

[R.G.]

FrankP..."These guys are playing two roles at the same time.  Can it really be sincere ?"...
Absolutely not.

Could you prove that assertion, please? 

[R.G.]

RG i will take you up on your offer if you are serious and design you an easy straightforward credible experiment testing your brands pedals against keeley, fulltone, klon, and whoever else    It would be my honor.

Consider yourself honored, and get started. 

FrankP..."These guys are playing two roles at the same time.  Can it really be sincere ?"...Conflict-of-Interest.
Absolutely not in my opinion....

Thank you. I felt pretty certain given the level of intelligence you've shown before that you wouldn't start doing the dance on that one. 

...I liked the videos and don't know Bob's intention but considering that none of these are even original circuits in the first place, I'm gonna lean towards my gut skepticism here.

That's fine. 
I have no issue with that forumlation of what you said at all. It does carry different semantics, as I know you know. 

RG..."As a personal observation, I find that the words "i hate to be..." can often be interpreted as "it gives me no displeasure to announce that ..."

no actually its my way of saying "if no one else is gonna kick the elephant in the room, then i guess i will"

Kicking elephants is always fun. 
I trust that you did notice that I said "personal observation" and "can be", not "that's what he said". I'm sure that, in the best traditions of English as practiced by our former president (lower case intended) William Jefferson Clinton, it means exactly what you meant it to mean, not more or less. 

[Tantalum7]

This series of videos didn't strike me as purporting to be the ultimate non-biased shoot out for all pedals ever made.  It struck me as being a pretty decent selection of well known/well respected pedals being listened to in a reasonably objective manner.  As such I think I heard some excellent sounds and felt that the Visual Sound pedals could really hold their own or even excel.  In this light, I didn't see it as being out of line to demonstrate the quietness and impressive bypass system of VS pedals.  No one's life is going to be ruined if they view a demonstration like this and are swayed to buy a VS pedal without having heard every other pedal done under double blind rigorously scientific studies.  If there were claims made that this was the ultimate unbiased listening test of effects pedals, I would have been skeptical, but I liked it for what it was: a good chance to hear some well made pedals in direct a/b tests with other pedals without an excess of hype.  So I say thanks and well done.

Scott

[Projectile]

So what happened to the rest of the chorus pedal shootout? I would really like to see a comparison of the other pedals too, not just the final two contenders. I don't always agree with the audience and don't find the comparison useful unless I actually get to hear the other pedals involved in the shootout with my own ears. I don't understand why this video was chopped, while the others show the entire process. Is there a chance that we may get to see the full chorus pedal shootout on youtube in the future?

[Pedal love]

...  "I also have the feeling that because we all know R.G. (and it is him who is presenting the experiment on DIYstompboxes), we tend to forget those points and because we know that he is a helpful guy and we are accustomed to his sincerity, we see the clips with an other eye than those who go directly on Youtube to see them"

What can I say? Sure it may seem that way, but in my case I actually like these pedals. Honestly, a purely gut reaction, devoid of familiarity. Consciuosly removing my own prejudice from the mix.

[frokost]

I guess it all comes down to epistemology. When designing such a test, one automatically assumes that what is tested actually is testable, comparable and as a result of that, possible to objectivily say "this is better than that". That may not be true. The quality of sound is constructed by human perception, and thus dependent on all the external factors that colour that perception. One could for example say that all attempts to create perfect test conditions are doomed to fail. For example, some people in this thread have argued that one should remove factors like the player knowing what pedal he's playing, making him stand still so that the audience won't judge the pedals out of how much fun the player is having. But why remove all the elements that makes us enjoy sound? Music is a social phenomenon, and removing all the humanity from a test would in my opinion make the test worse. In the end, you end up with at test that tells how good a pedal performs under perferct test conditions, where the science behind the test decides what those conditions should be, not the living and breathing humans that are supposed to enjoy it. Wouldn't that be kind of dull? Who on earth would get something out of that? It's like distilled water.

I'm not trying to recreate the positivism debate here. But I think there are some basic insights to be had from the people who argumented against absolute objectivity and argued in favor of qualitative insights instead.

Therefore - the videos are fun to watch, and the mythbuster videos are the best because they have as a goal to falsify some hypotheses. The others are nice and fun, and good marketing of nice products. As for the scientific part, it would be wise to just stop there and not go any further along that path.

My 2 cents.

[DougH]

You can make a Dist+ or Tube Screamer into a 100 different pedals just by messing with the caps that contribute to the EQ and/or the clipping diodes.

I'll go a step further and say that EQ is the heart and soul of any distortion pedal- period.

All this assym/sym/diode-type/clipping-method/opamp stuff is "tomayto/tomotto" stuff AFAIC. When designing, pick your favorite distortion method. Which one? Who cares... But pay very close attention to the EQ. I firmly believe that the main reason the TS is so popular is due to the EQ.

[DougH]

There's a lot of philo-psychobabble in this thread that goes over my head. But I think these videos are really intended to be more "demonstrations" than "tests". If that makes you feel better, I would suggest adopting that perspective of it. In the end, the subject matter is completely subjective. Trying to "objectify" it or arrive at a "more better" "legitimate" scientific test of it is really a waste of time AFAIC.

What they do accomplish is they show a typical group of "tone fest" or "tone party" attendees that things are not always what they seem, or are led to believe. Gear site forumites who feel they have to establish a group consensus before any purchase decision would do good to see these. If nothing else, the videos encourage people to try things and make up their own minds before following any established "convention", i.e., think for themselves. That's a good and healthy thing, and the vids provide a good service. Whether they are or aren't a "legit" scientific test or etc is beside the point IMO.

[petemoore]

  Fair ?  There's no 'fair' in stompboxings.
  There's 'Fare':
  get along , succeed <how did you fare on your exam?>
  Every 'stompbox group' I've ever met and had a sound opinion about, had, at the very least:
  a Guitar [wood or other, source pickup, etc,].
  Cables [shielded and 'good' hopefully].
  Amplifier of some sort.
  Speaker [and cabinet]
  Without all that stuff, stompboxes only make very small to small clicking noises, any one of the other necessary 'members' can help make things great or totally mess everything over.
  What these pedals did in the test is what they did in that particular case scenario, many of the players I know don't have very large, relatively quiet rooms in which to try pedals and amps out.
  As far as I'm concerned, they all passed the most important test.
  Any great pedal can be a terrible pedal, just like the next one.
  To a large degree it depends on what it depends on:...the myriad-ic plethora of interactive 'other items' they depend on to stink or beautify, then, how that is precieved.
  Information gathered to make stompbox choices may be best applied when used in conjunction with your own personal logic [I know mine needs routine testing, tuning or reworking] and discretion [tends to come in various forms with the logic].
  Here's a piece of info that could be gathered from analyzing the film and other data:
  Ears, like eyes, perceptions, amps, speakers, cables, guitars, stompboxes and rooms, all share a common possibility: They can be very different from one to the next. Add in 'control knobs' and 'perceptions'..these and other variances can increase exponentially.
  Interesting to see the slight to more extreme Eq changes change the audience reactions.

[Caferacernoc]

You can make a Dist+ or Tube Screamer into a 100 different pedals just by messing with the caps that contribute to the EQ and/or the clipping diodes.

I'll go a step further and say that EQ is the heart and soul of any distortion pedal- period.

All this assym/sym/diode-type/clipping-method/opamp stuff is "tomayto/tomotto" stuff AFAIC. When designing, pick your favorite distortion method. Which one? Who cares... But pay very close attention to the EQ. I firmly believe that the main reason the TS is so popular is due to the EQ.

I agree. I just made a Electra/Trotsky varient purpose built for an Epiphone Valve JR head. It has a lot of low cut so it is a dirty treble boost. The input cap, diode array and tone rolloff cap were all tweaked for this amp only. It sounds ok through my other amps, typical simple dirtbox. But through the Valve JR it's rather ridiculous how good it sounds.

[WGTP]

Mark, did you talk about JUST NOTICABLE DIFFERENCES?  I didn't have time to read the whole thread yet.

Doug, a new marketing method.  The Stompbox party.  Sort of like make up, pots and pans, sex toys, and lingerie.  

I use and voice my distortions at really low bedroom (I mean Laboratory) volume levels.  Would they be voiced the same at Madison Square Garden levels, probably not.  I use a dark 20 year old Peavey (PV) combo amp with a 12 in speaker.  Would I voice the distortions the same way for a Raging Marshal Stack (RMS), probably not.  Would I prefer one distortion with my '69 Melody Maker with the Seymour Duncan Full Shred pick up, a different one with my Strat, and another with my PRS or Les Paul, yes.

Would one pedal sound better for one situation than another, probably so.  Would you prefer one and I another, probably so.    

[DougH]

Right, and I think EQ is more than just how you get it to work in different situations. IMO, EQ is the pedal. IOW, these are all EQ pedals with distortion.

[Paul Marossy]

It's not possible to please everyone with a series of tests like that. Most people will probably automatically assume that the testers are biasing things towards their own products and are doing some sort of smoke and mirrors kind of thing.

I still want an A/B test where people are hearing different guitar cables of the same length, everything from a $10 cable to a ridiculously overpriced "oxygen-free" $100 cable. I'd like to see if anyone can really tell a difference. I have my doubts.

And the same for opamps of different types. I still contend that the average musician isn't going to be able to tell much of a difference between a JRC4558 and a KA358 (or whatever other kind of opamp you want to put in the blank). I still maintain that what most people think they are hearing has already been shaped by what they have already been told or read about somewhere. For me, the truest test would be to get a room full of non-musicians to hear this stuff and see what their opinion is - not audiophiles or music afficianados, either. Just plain people that listen to whatever is on their car radio. They will not be biased one way or the other when it comes to this stuff.

[frank_p]

It would also be fun to see the different response from different "groups" of guitarists that classify themselves in different styles.  Like bluesers, classic rockers, metalickers and "progressive post-modernist avantgarde pseudo-punk not wannabe a rocker...".

[Paul Marossy]

It would also be fun to see the different response from different "groups" of guitarists that classify themselves in different styles.  Like bluesers, classic rockers, metalickers and "progressive post-modernist avantgarde pseudo-punk not wannabe a rocker...".

Yeah, that would also be interesting.

[deaconque]

There's a lot of philo-psychobabble in this thread that goes over my head. But I think these videos are really intended to be more "demonstrations" than "tests". If that makes you feel better, I would suggest adopting that perspective of it. In the end, the subject matter is completely subjective. Trying to "objectify" it or arrive at a "more better" "legitimate" scientific test of it is really a waste of time AFAIC.

What they do accomplish is they show a typical group of "tone fest" or "tone party" attendees that things are not always what they seem, or are led to believe. Gear site forumites who feel they have to establish a group consensus before any purchase decision would do good to see these. If nothing else, the videos encourage people to try things and make up their own minds before following any established "convention", i.e., think for themselves. That's a good and healthy thing, and the vids provide a good service. Whether they are or aren't a "legit" scientific test or etc is beside the point IMO.

Ditto  .  This was not a laboratory test to find the end all supreme king of guitar pedal tone.  It was simply to showcase that Visual Sound pedals are comparable to some of the mojo pedals out there.  I think they accomplished that very well.  Whether or not people's opinions were swayed by those around them seems irrelevant since there seem to be quite a few guitarists out there who buy gear because the people around them have convinced them to.  Visual Sound made no claims that their pedals were superior to Klon or Fulltone or anyone else's but they did show us that they have a couple cool tricks up there sleeve (noise suppression, buffer) while still sounding great.  I think everyone's reading a little too much into the "test" aspect of it.  Just my $.02

[Ronsonic]

I think this pedal demonstration is a good thing. But honestly consider a "test" to be nearly impossible, only a comparison of different flavors and tastes.

Here's the major issue.

In this shootout, all pedals were compared while set to similar tones, or as similar as possible.  Which pedal was the one that was set to its sweet spot to which the others were matched? If I were setting it up then it would be my pedal. Not for any nefarious reason, but because my overdrive sounds exactly the way I sincerely believe an overdrive should sound. It is also the one I am most familiar with and could most easily get a great baseline sound from. It's reasonable to expect anyone else would do it much the same way for the same reasons.  Who set up the unaffected sound of the amp? There are some players and, of course, pedals that are best with a very clean undriven amp tone, others depend on the amp being slightly cranked. I expect the setup for the comparison to reflect those biases.

Please don't anyone read this as an accusation that the test was in any way rigged or unfair. It simply is what it is. A comparison of a lot of different pedals under the same conditions. I'm just pointing out that those conditions cannot have been optimal for all pedals.

A more perfect comparison might be with each pedal set to do what it does best into an amp best dialed in for it. This could be an hour or more of dialing in as in preparing to record a track on an album. Nobody would want to sit through that and it wouldn't be any fun. It'd be work that a studio engineer or producer would charge money for. It would also result in so many differences in result that comparison would be more difficult. We get back to the fact that there are so many good pedals that the differences are mostly a question of taste rather than of better or worse.

For me the take-away is that there are some really great pedals and the Visual Sound stuff is among them. Oh, and as a long time hater of almost every chorus I've ever heard the VS actually sounds good. Excellent work.

[DougH]

A more perfect comparison might be with each pedal set to do what it does best into an amp best dialed in for it.

This could be done if you had multiple amp setups which are preset before the show starts.

I've preached for years that this, to me, is what is best about great soundclips. They show each pedal in its best light, the way they were intended to be used. Who cares how they compare? Comparisons, esp direct through soundcards and etc put me to sleep after about 2 seconds. Overdrive shootouts bore me to tears. I want to hear intention and potential. What is it capable of? Absolute comparison is impossible so why bother.

[alfafalfa]

The amp used was a Visual Sound amp if I recognised it correctly.

What sort of amp is it ( forgive my ignorance ) , a tube amp or a solid state one ?

So far I haven't found information on the amp or did I miss it ?

My point is certain pedals don't respond good to a solid state amp while others don't mind so much.

And the whole chain is important : a good sounding pedal on one amp can sound not so good or downright bad on another amp , it all has to do with the voicing of the channel used ihmo. 

Who is gonna  shed some light ?

Alf