How much room do you need to stomp?

[Mark Hammer]

This thread is prompted by a number of observations:

• The number of people who try to make pedals in 1590A-sized chassis.  I assume that has something to do with cost, and what you can do when you skip batteries, but it also has something to do with placing stompswitches closer together.
• The number of people who are interested in Pete Cornish-styled multi-FX floor boards or other multi-FX units taking up less room than a bunch of individual pedals.
• The size of alternate stompswitches, like those used on the newer Visual Sound pedals.
• Ian/iaresee's recently acquired programmable loop selector.
• The spacing of paddle-switches on Boss, Digitech, and Korg multi-FX boards
• The close clustering of knobs and stompswitch on some hobbyist and commercial pedals built into 1590B-sized boxes (think ZVEX).
• The number of people who like to stick two stompswitches in a 1590B or BB by oriented the box the "long" way.
• Threads with images of pedalboards intended to provide least overall square footage, but with actuation movements required that come straight out of "Twister" (or cha-cha/mambo lessons)

I'm just curious of there is anything like a "standard" that could be inferred for spacing actuators so that they can be accessed in a way that:
a) uses least "frontage" space
b) provides fastest access and least deliberation/aiming time
c) provides least error
d) provides for most articulation (for example, how much space do you need to do tap tempo?)

Admittedly, the topic has more of a gig orientation since slow, deliberated actuation of pedals preparatory to recording or noodling around at home does not require any sort of efficiency orientation.

So, how much space do you need to do what you need to do easily, fast, and error-free?

[jacobyjd]

I tend to think of this in terms of how I do spacing on 1590BB's oriented 'the long way'. My favorite format so far has been to place two switches as far apart as possible in a BB box, and that tends to be just right.

I've felt a little cramped when using 3 switches spaced equally in a 1790 enclosure, but that works as well.

So...worst-case, I need at least 2.5" spacing. Best case leans more toward 3.5-4"

Also, a momentary switch for tap tempo can lean more toward minimum spacing, providing there are latching switches next to it. Mainly my reasoning for this is due to the lower amount of pressure needed to actuate a momentary stomp switch.

[jefe]

I would like enough room to fit my size 12W shoes in there without stomping on the adjacent switch, knobs, etc... things don't always work out that way, but that's what I would like. 

[iaresee]

I need a fair bit of room. I'd say 5 centimeters or so between switches. Or I start missing. I'm horribly uncoordinated. Doubly so on stage. That looper I bought has about the minimum spacing I can stomach. And over the years I've cut and cut the board back so there's adequate room:



Any tighter than that and I'm mis-stepping.

[SteveB]

3"

Steve

[MikeH]

You know, this makes me think of something else I recently discovered.  I wear chuck taylors nearly every day.  I practice in chuck taylors, so I'm used to doing my box-stomping in chucks.  Last month I tried to play a gig wearing cowboy boots as opposed to my usual chucks, and I found my pedal board to be a bit tricky to navigate while wearing my not-so-everyday footwear.

So I guess it depends on the shoes your wear.

[iaresee]

Ha! Yea, I wear trendy shoes to work but used to gig in Doc Martens -- I always had to wear the Docs to rehearsal in order to "practice" with the big thick soles. I'm one of those nervous live performers who needs a high level of control over my personal performance environment to calm myself down and actually enjoy myself.

[ayayay!]

Great subject.  I've often thought about it in reverse though.  As in, I think Boss has epitomized the perfect size, height, switch surface area, knob placement (mostly,) keeping knobs out of the way, DC jack, in/out jacks...

I just don't see anything to improve on with that design.  Obviously after 30 years they don't either. 

Just my OPINION, don't everyone jump on my case.   (<--sucks I have to have a disclaimer like that on this forum.)

[Andi]

5cm between switches. As far as knobs and that I like them as far away from the switches as possible.

[petemoore]

  I have two tier pedal arrangement.
  Long pedals at each end, bottom/back/middle is the PS, peals across two rows.
  9 pedals is my limit, but I switch an octave out for a...booster or distorter usually.
  Works out pretty good, I did look ~clumsy controlling the upper tier for a while, but I've got the motion locked in, timing is everything.
  I can see where having the controls...right there...easy to remember how to hit just right, is a great feature.

[Mark Hammer]

Great subject.  I've often thought about it in reverse though.  As in, I think Boss has epitomized the perfect size, height, switch surface area, knob placement (mostly,) keeping knobs out of the way, DC jack, in/out jacks...

I just don't see anything to improve on with that design.  Obviously after 30 years they don't either. 

I was actually going to come to the same conclusion, but figured it was bad form for the OP.
Okay, let's take it a step further ( ).  Would that form factor still be ideal if the jacks were mounted on the rear skirt and the pedal could be snuggled up side by side?  In other words, is what you perceive to be an ideal target/spacing the result of the form-factor PLUS lateral connecting space? 

And if one is talking about stompswitches rather than treadles, how much space does one need between the switch and the knobs?  That assumes that the knobs are on the same plane as the switch and not recessed like on Boss or similar.

[iaresee]

Great subject.  I've often thought about it in reverse though.  As in, I think Boss has epitomized the perfect size, height, switch surface area, knob placement (mostly,) keeping knobs out of the way, DC jack, in/out jacks...

I just don't see anything to improve on with that design.  Obviously after 30 years they don't either. 

Just my OPINION, don't everyone jump on my case.   (<--sucks I have to have a disclaimer like that on this forum.)

Boss' pedal design is gorgeous. Nothing wrong admitting that. Great stomp area. They did a great job expanding the design with the *-20 series: giving them bigger screens, more knobs, dual footswitches, but keeping the basic switch and layout the same. I loved my very first Boss pedal and one has been on my board in one form or another going on 20 years now. I still admire the design.

[iaresee]

Would that form factor still be ideal if the jacks were mounted on the rear skirt and the pedal could be snuggled up side by side?  In other words, is what you perceive to be an ideal target/spacing the result of the form-factor PLUS lateral connecting space? 

Definitely not. You'd have to press the switch with the tip of the toe or otherwise risk hitting two or even three at a time. The side-mounted jacks force you into a better managed spacing arrangement. Not my picture, but shows the "good" Boss layout:

And if one is talking about stompswitches rather than treadles, how much space does one need between the switch and the knobs?  That assumes that the knobs are on the same plane as the switch and not recessed like on Boss or similar.

I'll point to the Fulltone fuzz series here: I like they're layout. Rear-mounted jacks. The stomp is set front forward. A longer enclosure with a nicely sloping face that keeps the knobs fairly far back. Lined up tight, side-by-side, you get very nice spacing. This isn't my board, another GuitarsCanada.com member posted this, but I thought it highlighted their enclosure, spacing and I/O layout choices nicely:




Foxrox is another vendor with a nice enclosure design with good ergonomics.

I've been thinking about I/O placement more with this looper here now and I think I'll try a build that puts In and Out on the *bottom of the pedal* and the power on the top of the pedal. I don't need a bypass switch (the looper handles that). Then it's straight cable runs, straight plugs -- efficient and affordable.

[frequencycentral]

I've built a lot of pedals into 1590B - 'portrait' style, I measure 68mm between the pots and the stompswitch, which I like. A useable configuration without risk of damaging the pots, with a maximum of three pots. You can stomp happlily without looking to close at what your feet are doing.

I'm just putting together my first 1590B 'landscape' pedal, which gives space for up to five pots, with 30mm between the pots and the stompswitch. I'll report back on this, but just flipping the box round 90 degrees like this does afford interesting possibilites for circuits that wouldn't fit in portrait style. Zvex seems to get away with it........

[Tubebass]

How much room do I need to stomp? LOTS. I pretty much can't stomp and play at the same time!

[cpnyc23]

Wow - this topic has me thinking...  there is a lot in here.

One thing that I can say based on my initial go at the subject is that my aesthetic needs and my logistical needs are two very different things.  I like things to look tight and organized.   Solid right angles, color schemes that make sense, etc. (as a good reference point, I would freak out if I had my pedals laid out like Eric Johnson). In reality, I could always, however, use far more space than whatever is available.

-chris

[sjaltenb]

I left 5 inches between stomps that were on the same row, but the rows are 1.75" apart vertically. so each switch is 2.5" from one to the next, just on a different level, which helps a Lot.

this seems about right to me, but i dont have a monster foot.

[R.G.]

Good question Mark, and one that I've been through a few times for custom pedal setups. There is a quick and accurate answer.

The absolute minimum spacing for pedals, center to center, is one half of the width of the soles of the shoes you wear when pressing pedals, as measured across the toe box from the knuckle of the big toe. Any narrower than that and you can't hit one pedal without tilting your foot sideways or trying to toe them.

From t here, you add width to make it less error prone. As a practical matter, less than about 2.5"/63.5mm will be too tight for most people to hit accurately, and 3"/76mm will be easy.

The actuators on the dual Visual Sound pedals are spaced so that you can easily miss one of them for single selection, but easily hit both of them for an instant "change sides" activation. It is a much more critical spacing when you have to be able to both hit only one button and also hit two adjacent ones if you like. That last criteria limits the maximum spacing to being no more than one button diameter less than the width of the soles of the shoes you use when playing.

[tempus]

The size of alternate stompswitches, like those used on the newer Visual Sound pedals.

Those switches are sweet. Anyone knwo where I can get some?
My pedalboard has 1" square switches that are spaced with 3" centres. I don't think I could get them any closer than that without stepping on 2 at once.

[Mark Hammer]

Good answer, R.G.

Now comes the trickier companion question, and that is: How much "frontage" and "stompage" can the average player contend with on their pedal board?  In other words, when you consider the contents, intent, and dimensions of the average pedalboard, at what point are the switches/treadles too far away (hard left to hard right), and at what point are there just too damn many things to step on?  What is the maximum front row to rearmost stompswitches/actuators distance that the average player can gracefully negotiate?  That's obviously not the responsibility of any single pedal-maker but individual pedals make up all those pedalboards.

The actuators on the dual Visual Sound pedals are spaced so that you can easily miss one of them for single selection, but easily hit both of them for an instant "change sides" activation. It is a much more critical spacing when you have to be able to both hit only one button and also hit two adjacent ones if you like. That last criteria limits the maximum spacing to being no more than one button diameter less than the width of the soles of the shoes you use when playing.

When I made myself a multi-FX rackmount 20 years ago, and included 2 latching and 2 parallel non-latching switches in the foot-control unit, I made sure that the latching switches were on the outside and the non-latching ones were on the "inside", but spaced in the same manner: easy to hit just one, and easy to hit both if you wanted.

Thinking over this topic, I wonder if extension jacks for remote actuation of solid-state switches might, or even should, become a standard feature.  One of these days, I have to post a photo-essay of adapting a pedal in that way.