power

[El Heisenberg]

You can have an accident, even with the simplest circuit.

People still electrocute themselves screwing in lightbulbs.

Anyway if your not gunna post anything besides "ur stupid" then stay out, thank you.

No one has suggested that "ur stupid"; maybe just a little uninformed, a little too confident, and unwilling to acknowledge the danger that your lack of experience and know-how presents.

I guess in print it might be easy to mistake me trying to reduce things to simplest terms for over confidence. Im not over confident thats why i havent biultnitbwith the transformer yet and am trying to get a better idea or find some more info through you guys. I know theres danger, im just having understanding how it could be as easy to kill myself as yiu all are makibg it siund if i take all the precautions (i dont know all of the precaitions yet, which is a reason for this thread). I mean rubber gloves!! It cant get any safer!! Unless i wear rubber booties too. I have them!

[jacobyjd]

i dobt hve a computer. YOUBtry gettinf everything perfect on an iphone! I take alotnof time posting with this thing!

Typing on an iPhone isn't really much of an excuse for the amount of typos I'm seeing--just sayin'...it makes things really hard to read, and my point was that if you don't have the patience to make sure your posts are clear when simply discussing this stuff, it doesn't seem possible that you'd have the patience to make sure all your ducks are in a row before diving into a dangerous project. If that assumption is wrong, sorry, but it's simply based on observation.

Debug voltages wouldnt have helpe in that case. It was breadboard. If every IC pin got 9v and 4.5 where it was supposed to, why mention them?

You're basing that assumption on the thought that there is nothing else that could be derived from posting voltages. Do you truly know that to be the case?

The reason im building this is because it AC. I know theee ar plenty of ither designs. Cmon.

Sorry, it was hard to derive that this was the reason for attempting this kind of amp project in the first place.

Anyway if your not gunna post anything besides "ur stupid" then stay out, thank you.

I'm not saying you're stupid. Maybe mildly shortsighted, possibly overeager to bite off more that one should chew without some careful thought and extensive knowledge-gathering, but I have no way to determine any level of stupidity on your part by observation.

I guess in print it might be easy to mistake me trying to reduce things to simplest terms for over confidence. Im not over confident thats why i havent biultnitbwith the transformer yet and am trying to get a better idea or find some more info through you guys. I know theres danger, im just having understanding how it could be as easy to kill myself as yiu all are makibg it siund if i take all the precautions (i dont know all of the precaitions yet, which is a reason for this thread). I mean rubber gloves!! It cant get any safer!! Unless i wear rubber booties too. I have them!

Again, I'm not sure if you're joking, but you shouldn't depend on rubber gloves to be your sole protection against electrocution. As one precaution among many, maybe.

[R.G.]

I'm pretty sure that the tone is different from Walters, so we're probably dealing with a different individual.

El, your comments make it clear that you have no idea at all what you're dealing with. Worse yet, you don't think it could be all that complicated.

And in a way, you're right. It's not that complicated. All you have to do is to wire up the AC power in such a way that (i) no one (ii) ever, at any time in the future (iii) is connected to the hot side of the AC power line (iv) or to a small, leaking part of the AC power and that (v) you don't get connected, fully or partially (vi) while working on, (vii) debugging, (viii) using (ix) or repairing the thing (x) even years later when you've forgotten most of what you did, or (xi) sold, pawned, given, or had stolen the device.

There is a principle in formal logic that, simply stated says that you can't prove a negative. You can't prove something will not happen. In this case, all you can do is to learn what procedures and materials have *failed* in the past and which ones *haven't failed yet* and try to restrict yourself to the "not yet" ones.

For instance: rubber gloves; on the face of it that sounds like a slam-dunk. But if you think about the fact that cutting copper wire with diagonal cutters *can form* points that are almost atomically sharp, as well as the deformation work-hardening the tip. Good for puncturing rubber gloves. Electrical tape sounds like a good idea for insulating until you learn that the adhesive and the tape material itself can cold-flow under any persistent pressure, and that atmospheric humidity converts the adhesive to a molasses-like goo of no noticeable strength.

Fuses are a particular favorite of mine. Fuses are NOT there to protect you from electricity. It takes on the order of 20 milliamperes through the right part of the body to stop your heart from meaningful beating. The 1/4A fuse you mentioned is over twelve times bigger. Once the electricity is through your skin, it takes only microamperes through the heart muscle to stop it. Fuses are intended to stop fires from happening if the transformer has an internal defect that you didn't know about and which didn't show up until some time (perhaps years) later and cause a blazing meltdown to burn down the house.

El - you're forcing us to be argumentative by refuting things that we know by experience are true. We're not arguing or trying to put you down, we're just being realistic and trying to (potentially) save your life or someone else's.  We want you to live and prosper and wire all the AC widgies you want. But we want you to do it safely. And we can't tell you how to do that in this forum. You need on the spot, face-to-face teaching.

[El Heisenberg]

I dont mean to sound like im arguing with you guys. I never tried to soind like i dont BELEIVE you guys, i just dont see how doibd exacly what you just said could be so hard to get right. If i use shrink wrap around every live wire ill be fine, rite?? I thought the fact tht id be insulatig went without saying. Also thebrubber gloves im talking about are the yellow dish washing ones, not latex. Shrink-wrap+rubber gloves BAM! recipe for success! Rite??

[jacobyjd]

 

[MikeH]

I dont mean to sound like im arguing with you guys. I never tried to soind like i dont BELEIVE you guys, i just dont see how doibd exacly what you just said could be so hard to get right. If i use shrink wrap around every live wire ill be fine, rite?? I thought the fact tht id be insulatig went without saying. Also thebrubber gloves im talking about are the yellow dish washing ones, not latex. Shrink-wrap+rubber gloves BAM! recipe for success! Rite??

No.  And If you're making fun of us, it's not funny.

[Andi]

I dont mean to sound like im arguing with you guys. I never tried to soind like i dont BELEIVE you guys, i just dont see how doibd exacly what you just said could be so hard to get right. If i use shrink wrap around every live wire ill be fine, rite?? I thought the fact tht id be insulatig went without saying. Also thebrubber gloves im talking about are the yellow dish washing ones, not latex. Shrink-wrap+rubber gloves BAM! recipe for success! Rite??

Just a simple question; why will you not listen to any of the advice you've been given? Do you think everyone is trying to spoil your fun? Or do you think there's the slightest possibility that everyone is actually trying to help?

[El Heisenberg]

By advice, what do you mean?

Btw no pun intended with that little "bam" comment.

[earthtonesaudio]

Shrink-wrap+rubber gloves BAM! recipe for success! Rite??

Rong. 


If you go playing with AC in ignorance, you may be shocked, but we won't.

[MikeH]

By advice, what do you mean?

Meaning don't try this until you know enough about what you're doing to realize that saying 'rubber dish gloves and shrink wrap will protect you from electricity' is like saying 'a bullet proof vest actually makes me bulletproof'.

[El Heisenberg]

By that logic i could say that yea a bullet proof vest will make me bullet proof... If i dont get his by bullets!!!!! If i dont touch the live wire (+ of course, everything else)  then im not getting hit by bullets!!

[JKowalski]

Okay - this topic is kind of going in circles. El, you need to stop trying to "reduce things to the simplest terms". Take all our advice, word for word. Do everything we have said you need to do. That's it. Don't simplify it, the whole point of this advice is to take it by the letter.

Yes shrink wrap and rubber gloves is a great step to take, but as RG and I said, there are always possibilities for accidents (the sharp wire dealio, ex).

TAKE EVERY BIT OF THE ADVICE, DON'T PICK AND CHOOSE.




P.S. You guys are kinda making this go in circles, too. An overwhelming amount of snide, often unhelpful comments can kind of get on people's nerves.

[jacobyjd]

By that logic i could say that yea a bullet proof vest will make me bullet proof... If i dont get his by bullets!!!!! If i dont touch the live wire (+ of course, everything else)  then im not getting hit by bullets!!

I'm pretty sure that's the tone that everyone above is referring to--it sounds like, in your world, you can't ever do wrong. You couldn't possibly make a mistake. You couldn't possibly build something with an AC power supply, having no previous knowledge, getting some hasty information and have it NOT fail and cause a fire or kill someone else at any time, now or in the future.

People who aren't willing to learn shouldn't ask for advice 

[MikeH]

By that logic i could say that yea a bullet proof vest will make me bullet proof... If i dont get his by bullets!!!!! If i dont touch the live wire (+ of course, everything else)  then im not getting hit by bullets!!

Well hey man, go and run through all of those bullets then!  Have the time of your life!  Send me a postcard...

[El Heisenberg]

how am i supposed to get hands on training?!? Im building this to learn!

What tone?? Are you talking about the exclamation points??

When di you do your first ac project?? Who taught YOU guys??

Maybe i sound like i think i cant do no wrong, because im trying to make up for some people talking as if u can do no right.

[El Heisenberg]

Fine screw it. I give up. .......... AN - watch your in your posts:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60421.0

[MikeH]

Again- no offense.

I feel like I'm arguing with a person standing on a rooftop holding an umbrella.  I'm telling them not to jump but they're saying "I've got the umbrella!!  What could possibly go wrong!?!"

The problem is you don't know what could go wrong.  Most people who have HV know-how have learned from someone else, or at the very least read a book or two.  The big problem here is that you got off on the wrong foot with your very first post.  You said "So I can just wire it like this right?" and it was the most dangerous thing I've ever heard anyone mention on this forum, not to mention any tube amp forum I've been on.  That's why everyone is so skeptical of your experience.

This one:

Or in designs with a 12v regulator, this little transistor looking thing, do i just biuld the circuit and attatch a normal cord to it and plug it right into the wall?

[JKowalski]

By that logic i could say that yea a bullet proof vest will make me bullet proof... If i dont get his by bullets!!!!! If i dont touch the live wire (+ of course, everything else)  then im not getting hit by bullets!!

Well hey man, go and run through all of those bullets then!  Have the time of your life!  Send me a postcard...

This is what I meant by making this topic go nowhere.




Okay - Yes. I am sure alot of us taught ourselves. I learned from my dad though, a few years back (14 year old, I think). Our family often remodels houses, and he taught me to work with mains voltage in house wiring, extensively. A couple years later, I got heavily into electronics and only very recently have I started with mains circuit design. I know exactly what can happen with mains, my dad has been shocked before, and I know a ton of safety precautions. I have read 7+ entire (large) electronics books such as "The Art Of Electronics" all the way through, often up to three times, and I have read hundreds of websites detailing various aspects of analog circuitry design. I pretty much know what is going on in all my circuits at all times. I triple check every mains circuit before plugging it in, and I take every single possible precaution I can. Every one listed in this topic. This is how I feel safe working with mains voltage. If I have any questions, or am even slightly unsure of what exactly is going on in my circuit, I ask around.

And by the way - you do sound like you can do no wrong - because you are constantly brushing off various aspects of our advice. That tells us that you do not understand the key point here - that this is serious stuff, and NOTHING should be ignored.

Fine screw it. I give up. @&&holes.

Alot of people here have given you alot of good advice, and spent alot of their time trying to help you. That was completely uncalled for.

If you give up, it's not our fault. Don't be a jerk.

[jacobyjd]

how am i supposed to get hands on training?!? Im building this to learn!

Building to learn is a fantastic idea. Nobody is discounting that. However, when you are gathering information and people who know what they're doing/have been doing this for years/have legitimate credentials in the field, it's best to listen to what they're saying and follow along. In this case, it's been mentioned several times above that the safe way to learn how to handle the AC portion of amp-building is to have someone who knows what they're doing show you. That means you can take every opportunity to meet up with someone who has built amps before so they can walk you through the process. I don't know any small-time amp builder who wouldn't give you a hand if YOU supply the materials and an open schedule/mind.

What tone?? Are you talking about the exclamation points??

I'm talking about how your post ignored the point of his analogy and focused once again on how much you don't make mistakes. You'll have to wire that AC+ line at some point, and you'll have to touch it to do that. Additionally, you'll have to plug it in at some point. In case it doesn't work, you'll have to debug it, which means you'll have to touch it with something. I don't know any electricians who wear dishwashing gloves to protect from shock. What I DO know is that they tend to take intelligent precautions based on their hands-on training and certifications. Ignoring that fact by focusing on the flaws of an analogy that is only trying to assist in explaining a larger point that is otherwise being missed--especially by turning the words back on the free-advice-giver--is what makes knowledgeable people not want to give away their knowledge as easily.

When di you do your first ac project?? Who taught YOU guys??

I did my first AC project when I was trained by a licensed technician to assemble emergency override controls as a contractor for a major elevator manufacturer. I didn't always listen, and I was shocked more than once. I'm lucky to be alive, and that's much of the reason why I even care enough to post more than once in this thread--if only to keep a silly lack of patience from killing a fellow forumite.

Maybe i sound like i think i cant do no wrong, because im trying to make up for some people talking as if u can do no right.

Making up for a perceived gap in attitude vs. intelligent advice by being arrogant to those who are trying to help (and believe it or not, I guarantee you that is what your detractors in this thread are trying to do...) isn't going to save your life. I'd rather you (or your band-mates, or the person you may sell your builds to in the future, or the lives of everyone in any given concert hall where your build may fail) be alive with wounded pride than be dead and satisfied that El H really showed up those DIYstompboxes guys. Showed 'em good.

[R.G.]

how am i supposed to get hands on training?!? Im building this to learn!

Almost anyone who does AC power wiring that I've ever met would be glad to give you a few lessons.

Here are some suggestions.
- Find one of the old ARRL ham radio manuals. They talk about safe wiring in places. Not a lot, but some.
- Find a ham radio operator that builds his own equipment. Those old white haired guys were geeks when geek wasn't cool.
- Find an amp repair technician at a musical instrument store.
- Go to the public library. If they haven't given away or sold all of their books, you can often find books on safe electrical wiring.
- find/buy/borrow a book on meeting CE electrical safety

If it sounds like a lot of work, it is. You're trying to learn to work in a way where you never make a mistake. That's hard when you don't know what a mistake looks like.