Onboard preamp true to Andy Summers' Telecaster - Advice please?

[tj7]

There are many threads at various guitar forums related to Andy Summer's tele.  I'm trying to clarify once and for all the most authentic way of emulating his onboard pre-amp sound.

interesting info from:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-128735.html

user 'leadbelly' wrote:

"Whatever the preamp circuit is, it certainly seems to be a well kept secret. If I were to take a wild guess, I would say it's some kind of circuit using germanium transistors or diodes. I say this because I'm thinking about how it sounds on The Police tunes, and it still retains the Telecaster brightness and twang, and germanium clipping is a noticeably brighter sound than silicon. In the absence of any better information I would try a single JFET opamp with germanium diodes in the feedback path, switchable in/out."

'some_hero' added:
"Also, do yourself a huge favor and stay away from any new production germaniums, ESPECIALLY NTE. NTE are crap and sound like it. You should hit up the member offering you vintage GEs, and also check out Smallbearelec.com"

I googled and found this:

http://www.guitar-repairs.co.uk/jfet_guitar_preamp.htm

(i have no idea what a 'JFET' preamp is)
Take a look at the specs - what do people think..?

I've basically given up on trying to establish how the wiring was modified for the eric clapton preamp circuit that fender used for their gazillion dollar 'sumers tribute tele.  the original AS preamp sound is what i'm after, and that circuit died.  also, the clapton board is quite large and i don't want to destroy my tele by hacking into it more than necessary.

in any case, I'm after something that can give me that nice clean sparkle and a gutsy roar when turned up.  ie I'll be installing toggle switch and volume pot.

advice?  what kind of preamp gear should i be sourcing to take to my guitar man to wire up for me?  sparkle and guts!  no tone sucking!   

[BAARON]

Do you want the guitar's signal to be distorted when you turn it up, or do you want the guitar's signal to be LOUD so your amp distorts when you turn it up?

I don't think that a guitar preamp alone will get you Summers' tone.  Do you have any examples of his guitar sound where you know for SURE that he's only using his preamp and nothing else?  And do you know what his amp settings were, and which amp it was, and what mods were done to that amp (in the case of his Marshalls)?

I.e., do you have a sound sample of Summers' onboard preamp for us to listen to that isn't coloured by any other parts of his effects chain?

My guess is that slapping a Dynacomp between your guitar and your amp will do more to get his tone than installing a preamp in your guitar will.

(This is coming from a guitarist whose motivation to build half his rig has been to sound like Andy Summers.)

[tj7]

Do you want the guitar's signal to be distorted when you turn it up, or do you want the guitar's signal to be LOUD so your amp distorts when you turn it up?

Hmmm...  I don't know!  Whatever the fender guys did to the clone that Andy himself approved..

ie in this video:

I'm guessing it's the latter of your suggestions – surely that's the most authentic way of doing it...?  would you really want the signal to start breaking up at the guitar signal end...?

I don't think that a guitar preamp alone will get you Summers' tone.  Do you have any examples of his guitar sound where you know for SURE that he's only using his preamp and nothing else?  And do you know what his amp settings were, and which amp it was, and what mods were done to that amp (in the case of his Marshalls)?

we can agree that it's a fact that andy did use an onboard preamp, at the very least for his guitar solos.  perhaps also for some of the more sparkly stuff he did (perhaps used along with the phase switch activated).  I can't perfect his tone because I don't have a Gibson PAF and can't afford one!  however the bridge single coil should do the trick.  the preamp was only used some of the time in any case, the amp settings we'll never know but he did use marshall half stacks – I believe the heads were modified somewhat.  what I've tried to establish in this thread is that I can't get it all exactly right – so what's gonna be a good allrounder mockup...?

I.e., do you have a sound sample of Summers' onboard preamp for us to listen to that isn't coloured by any other parts of his effects chain?

yes, I do have many fine examples of andy using that preamp and little of nothing else.  I'll upload some samples and link them here asap. 

My guess is that slapping a Dynacomp between your guitar and your amp will do more to get his tone than installing a preamp in your guitar will.

I have a vintage mxr dynacomp and it's andy summers alright.  I also use an original electro harmonix electric mistress – noisy little bastard but it's quite literally 'zenyatta' period andy summers in a box.  the preamp is essential for the bigger sounds, and I think will help at lower volume settings for some of the more sharp rhythm stuff, particularly from the 1979-80 touring days.  again, my samples will indicate this and I'll upload some asap.

(This is coming from a guitarist whose motivation to build half his rig has been to sound like Andy Summers.)

we already have a lot in common.  I play in a police tribute band – you are probably a much better guitarist than me but I can do the rhythm  / spooky stuff quite convincingly IMO!  getting an out of phase switch put in this week.  that hopefully will make my 'floating cloud' sound more convincing...

[tj7]

ah.. i'll add that actually, the examples i'll upload are actually most likely contaminated by external effects - ie it's a dirty chug in 'so lonely' - so it's either the dirty channel via the amp or a distortion pedal and then (i think) he hits the preamp switch and bam, evil solo.  still, should be interesting and may shed some light on things.

[Paul Marossy]

I wonder if he just had a Stratoblaster in his guitar?

[Ben N]

I wonder if he just had a Stratoblaster in his guitar?

+1
Another solution may be something like Paul's own Tillman-variant. (Don't be modest, Paul.) Or an AMZ Mosfet boost with the buffer/booster switch.

People make such a fuss about this thing that no one, not even Summers hisself, can actually identify, spewing such malarky as is quoted in the original post. Just use what works (see above).

[tj7]

ok, here's an audio sample:

thedelorean.net/audio/police/public/So%20Lonely%2019790604-02.m4a

login: zenyatta
pass: mondatta

check out the guitar solo onward. 

[tj7]

fender tribute AS tele video which explains a little about the preamp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vzStQpEXHQ

[Gus]

Does not sound like anything too complicated.  I viewed the fender video, it sounds like the preamp is after the passive controls.

You can find phase switching diagrams on the web for pickups no big deal all.  I would guess what that one does is flip the humbucker wires because he said it only works in the middle postion so the humbucker could be switched in the front and you might not hear a change but in the middle you will and back the humbucker is out of the cicuit.

  The L6 is a cooler switching setup.

I could be just a bypass switch around the gain stage after the passive section. 

The gain section could be all kinds of things I would guess 470K or higher input resistance because it did not seem to change the tone from loading as best I could tell from the video.

  Maybe

A opamp gain of one on up gain control not volume control

A JFET or BJT booster fixed booster with a volume control

A JFET or BJT gain stage with a gain control no volume control

etc.

[Paul Marossy]

I wonder if he just had a Stratoblaster in his guitar?

+1
Another solution may be something like Paul's own Tillman-variant. (Don't be modest, Paul.) Or an AMZ Mosfet boost with the buffer/booster switch.

People make such a fuss about this thing that no one, not even Summers hisself, can actually identify, spewing such malarky as is quoted in the original post. Just use what works (see above).

I didn't even think of the Tillman preamp. I was just thinking of what might have been an off-the-shelf item at the time, AFAIK.
The Tillman preamp with a 4.7uF bypass cap will give you quite a boost.

It's really all guess work unless someone can produce the specs for Summers' original preamp circuit. I'm sure you could get the same end result any number of ways. The rest is splitting hairs.

[Gus]

One could build a few external boost stages.

The video sounded like a cleaner booster driving a tube amp harder to me

  I am guessing it was made in the 70's so there is a good chance it could be a TL071 or something like that

Textbook stuff most likely.

DPDT switch to flip the humbucker wires

maybe
a TL071
47K, 47K Vref with a 47uf cap at the node
470K to 1meg from the node to + input
100K lin pot wired as a variable resistor 0 to 100K out to - in
10K - input to a cap say 47uf to ground
.1uf input cap
10uf electro or 1uf film output cap and 100 ohm series resistor output of the opamp (100ohm for opamp stability)

DPDT switch wired like in effects to switch the booster between the volume control wiper to the output jack tip

Change the output jack to a tip ring sleeve and wire the battery - to the ring like done in effects at the input
gain of X 1 to about X 10 noninverting  20db (it is really X11 but close enough)

antipop resistors at the input and output maybe 10meg in and 100K to 1 meg out

A starting point you can change the circuit for more gain input resistance etc.

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tl071.pdf

[Ben N]

Have a gander at this: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=75862.0

[tiges_ tendres]

Check out this thread from the tele forum.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaster-discussion-forum/123379-andy-summers-tele.html

According to the thread, it would appear that whatever is in the reissue Andy Summers tele, is the same thing that goes in the Clapton strat, which is a 25dB mid boost.

Now whether that was what is in his original tele, I cant answer.  But it looks like four transistors!

[tiges_ tendres]

Check out this thread from the tele forum.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaster-discussion-forum/123379-andy-summers-tele.html

According to the thread, it would appear that whatever is in the reissue Andy Summers tele, is the same thing that goes in the Clapton strat, which is a 25dB mid boost.

Now whether that was what is in his original tele, I cant answer.  But it looks like four transistors!

Here is a link to the mid boost kit to buy:

http://www.darrenriley.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1219

[Gus]

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=75862.0
Like I said textbook circuit

IIRC the blue guitar had a E.C. schematic up in the past it was a gain stage to a volume control then 3 transistor opamp circuit standard stuff.  You might even find my 5 way tele switch B, B+N parallel , N, N + B series in phase, N + B series out of phase.

If you want to use the phase switch use the fender tele 4way with the phase switch work out the cool sounds you can get

For what I posted X10 is 20db,  Like I said you can change the gain.

I would guess the A.S. one is more of a flat boost using the same kind of opamp circuit you have the opamp and the circuity around it for EQ or flat.

At low gains I would doubt you could tell IC opamp or  boost then 3 transistor opamp.

I am trying to give easy stuff to start on this path

I think you can still find the EC circuit on the web if you look.

[Ben N]

Whatever was in Summers's original, it surely was NOT the EC Strat circuit, so there you go--do what works.

[Paul Marossy]

Whatever was in Summers's original, it surely was NOT the EC Strat circuit, so there you go--do what works.

I would tend to agree.

[tiges_ tendres]

Whatever was in Summers's original, it surely was NOT the EC Strat circuit, so there you go--do what works.

I would tend to agree.

If I was dropping 8k on an Andy Summers replica guitar, i'd want it to be a bit more exact than what it is currently.

If it is the case that they just slapped in Claptons mid boost circuit, that strikes me as very lazy on the part of Fender!  Considering the efforts they go to to ensure historical accuracy in their replicas, this seems like a bit of a cop out.

Saying that, I heard that whatever circuit was in there was disconnected some time ago.

[Ben N]

Steven, it couldn't possibly have been the EC circuit, since the EC Strat wasn't even brought to market until long after Summers had that preamp installed, or taped on, or whatever. Besides, the EC was engineered for EC's specific desire to get an ersatz-Gibson eq for leads. Since the actual preamp was long gone, and Summers had no idea what it was, Fender just took something off the shelf. I'll bet it sounds good too, even if it has no particular relationship to the original. I'm just saying the whole mojo-hunt here is a fool's errand, and I'm sure tha any number of simpler circuits would do very well.

[Jay]

IIRC from reading his book a while ago the pre-amp was in his Tele when he bought it whilst living in the US - late 60's/early 70's?  So doubt it's a jfet or op-amp circuit - discrete Ge or Si transistor job I'd say.

If I find where I've put the book I'll check.

Jay.