Onboard preamp true to Andy Summers' Telecaster - Advice please?

[tiges_ tendres]

Steven, it couldn't possibly have been the EC circuit, since the EC Strat wasn't even brought to market until long after Summers had that preamp installed, or taped on, or whatever. Besides, the EC was engineered for EC's specific desire to get an ersatz-Gibson eq for leads. Since the actual preamp was long gone, and Summers had no idea what it was, Fender just took something off the shelf. I'll bet it sounds good too, even if it has no particular relationship to the original. I'm just saying the whole mojo-hunt here is a fool's errand, and I'm sure tha any number of simpler circuits would do very well.

I completely agree with you.

I know how large corporations work, and I can imagine the fender guys just taking the simplest route they could with stuff they already had on hand.

I understand that the original circuit is probably long gone, but the legend of the circuit remains!  Which is why they needed to appease Police fans everywhere!

[tj7]

thanks everyone for your help and advice. 
there are evidently many, many options and it's quite mind boggling for a non-tech-head like me. 

some clarifications - you may have noticed that i actually started that thread at tdpri:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaster-discussion-forum/164342-andy-summers-preamp-circuit-emulation-thread.html

and a quick read will indicate that yes, the fender tribute AS tele uses the clapton tribute onboard circuit BUT it is wired differently because the EC board has a mid boost, the AS doesn't.  unfortunately no one seems to know how the wiring differs.  no matter, because despite the fact that andy himself aproved the new tele tribute himself, the effect i am after would be based on andy's original onboard setup - the one that 'died' whilst he was still using it in the police (or was it his gibson PAF pup that died, or both?  i've read reports confirming all of the above). also, the clapton board looks enormous. i am sure i can have something more compact but equally gutsy installed. 

hence i'm seeking in this thread to emulate the effect / sound quality of his original preamp, not seek out the wiring changes for the clapton board.  oh, and by all reports - from andy himself - including in 'one train later' - his tele came into his life already modded.  the onboard preamp was already fitted.  most likely, as someone has already noted, in the 1970's. definitely not later than 1978.

again, here's some audio:

thedelorean.net/audio/police/public/So%20Lonely%2019790604-02.m4a

login: zenyatta
pass: mondatta

it's when the guitar solo kicks in, and you can also hear it in those barre / power chords when he rips back into the chorus at the end of the solo. knowing what was likely in andy's rig (research, research) configuration, we can be pretty certain that was his boost right there.  sounds like a premp boost driving the amp to me (again, like a previous poster noted after watching the fender youtube vid).  any opinions on this based on the live audio..? (and what a cool solo)

so -
active preamp to make guitar loud to drive amp harder
toggle on / off
volume / gain pot

seems like i just have to learn more about how these circuits work because i don't exactly 'get' everything that's being suggested yet.  the last thing i want to do is have something installed which provide a boost that sounds muddy, flat or compressed, because i didn't know what i was talking about.  so again i appreciate all of your input and patience.

a friend suggested this:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Preamps/L_R_Baggs_Control-X_Mixer_Preamp.html

although the phase switch may be somewhat redundant for me as i am having said phase switch installed this week. 

[Ben N]

If you want a boost that you switch in, you can't go too far wrong with a Stratoblaster, and it's about the easiest thing you can build that doesn't involve Lego:
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/DRAGONFLY-LAYOUTS_0/album14/album150/ALEMBIC_STRATOBLASTER_PERFBOARD_001.gif.html
If you try it and don't like it, big deal--go on to something else.

Jay, I believe that Jerry Garcia had a Stratoblaster in one of his guitars as early as 1973, so a jfet is not out of the question.

[tj7]

here's a summary of the options i have been presented with so far via diy and tdpri:

Tillman preamp
http://www.till.com/articles/GuitarPreamp/

"The Tillman preamp with a 4.7uF bypass cap will give you quite a boost."

AMZ Mosfet boost with the buffer/booster switch.

Gus at diystompboxes forum suggested:

a TL071
47K, 47K Vref with a 47uf cap at the node
470K to 1meg from the node to + input
100K lin pot wired as a variable resistor 0 to 100K out to - in
10K - input to a cap say 47uf to ground
.1uf input cap
10uf electro or 1uf film output cap and 100 ohm series resistor output of the opamp (100ohm for opamp stability)
DPDT switch wired like in effects to switch the booster between the volume control wiper to the output jack tip
Change the output jack to a tip ring sleeve and wire the battery - to the ring like done in effects at the input
gain of X 1 to about X 10 noninverting  20db (it is really X11 but close enough)
antipop resistors at the input and output maybe 10meg in and 100K to 1 meg out


'Stratoblaster'

http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/DRAGONFLY-LAYOUTS_0/album14/album150/ALEMBIC_STRATOBLASTER_PERFBOARD_001.gif.html


'Earth tones audio buster'

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=75862.0


Seymour Duncan pickup booster circuit

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/PASFX/Seymour_Duncan_Pickup_Booster_Circuit.html


Jfet guitar preamp

http://www.guitar-repairs.co.uk/jfet_guitar_preamp.htm


L R Baggs

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Preamps/L_R_Baggs_Control-X_Mixer_Preamp.html

[Ben N]

The LR Bags is for mixing a piezo bridge. You don't have one of those, do you? (Andy sure didn't.) OK, eliminate that.

That Duncan thing seems fine, if you want a ready-made solution--probably quite similar to the buster, or Gus's TL071 suggestions. Check guitarfetish for similar stuff. Just make sure it will fit in your Tele's cavity.

(BTW, fitting any preamp plus a battery in there will pose a major challenge unless you are willing to route. You might want to consider alternatives to the traditional 9v battery, such as a 12v wireless doorbell battery, which is smaller than a AA. Don't know about current, but most of these circuits can be made to draw very little. Also look at Tillman's remote powered option.)

That Brit jfet circuit is very similar to something posted here not too long ago by RG Keen, and has certain advantages similar to an opamp. It can be DIYed for a lot less than 24 pounds. Keep in mind that using two devices (jfet and bjt) will increase your current draw.

The two single jfet designs, the Tillman and the Stratoblaster, are very compact, and can easily be built on a very small piece of perfboard mounted to a micro-toggle. The Tillman, like the AMZ, can easily be configured to be a full-time buffer with a switchable boost, if you want that. You can rework the S-Blaster like that, too, but as designed it is for switching in or out. The AMZ has more gain than the jfets.

My advice, FWIW: Decide if you want ready-made or DIY. Ready-made is easy, but DIY is cheaper and teaches you more, and makes changes/tweaks a lot easier. If it's DIY, look at each design for input and output impedance, noise (see the datasheets for the devices you would use), parts count and current draw. Compare layouts, if you have them. Then pick one. And remember: if you're not satisfied, you can always take it out or try something else. These are all cheap and easy to build.

[tj7]

My advice, FWIW: Decide if you want ready-made or DIY. Ready-made is easy, but DIY is cheaper and teaches you more, and makes changes/tweaks a lot easier. If it's DIY, look at each design for input and output impedance, noise (see the datasheets for the devices you would use), parts count and current draw. Compare layouts, if you have them. Then pick one. And remember: if you're not satisfied, you can always take it out or try something else. These are all cheap and easy to build.

Thanks Ben (I'm a Ben too).
I'll be most likely finding a ready-made - I have no capacity for doing this kind of thing myself.  I do have contacts here that I can run layouts by, though.  I'll have to have a cavity cut into my tele (like Andy's, incidentally) for the circuit and 9v battery, so just want to minimise the damage by finding a compact board. 

I've just had these recommended:

I'm told the TC3 can be setup with variable boost and works in guitars.

http://www.bartolini.net/information/electronics/electronics_a.htm

http://www.bestbassgear.com/bartolini-preamps-tc3.htm

another andy fan had this installed:  http://www.muzique.com/amz/mini.htm

[BDuguay]

Keep in mind that whatever is in the original is going to just that, original, so any current circuit to conisder should be based on something that's been around. I too am a hard and fast Andy Summers fan BTW.
B.

[Gus]

You don't have to install a battery in the body.
Read about the EBS powering of effects from the amp.  Look at active bass circuits and note how you can set them up for external power(often jumper the battery clip and supply +9 via the ring).  You could fit a small board in the tele and external power it with a T(signal)R(+9VDC etc)S(ground) plug and jack and a battery outside.

Someone asked about a "NEW" external system in a thread here sometime ago and I drew this
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/gus/9pp.GIF.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

open it in another program for better viewing

You could try the beginner project/NPN boost.  I should have named that something else.   About X2 at min gain and about 10K output resistance and you can drop in different Si transistors without having to worry about biasing.  You can build it small and there is even a stripboard layout.

I posted what I think is the switching in a earlier post.

[Ben N]

+1 on Gus's NPN boost, as a great way to smack your amp upside the head.

[Paul Marossy]

That Tillman preamp will give you quite a boost with a 4.7uf or 6.8uF bypass cap. And it's very simple to make. I made a PCB for it that measures only 1-1/4"x3/4". It fits in the tightest of control cavities. The bigger problem is having room for the battery... 

[tj7]

ah, here's a question - regarding the options discussed above, i'm not sure on what actual volume gain they each represent..?  the jfet link clearly states 5db, the tillman is even less at 3db - but i figured i'd be after about 20db given that the clapton board gives a 20db 'midrange' boost...? (note what we want here is a clean boost, not an eq specific one)  can the various boards above be easily modded to provide this level of gain...?  or is 20db ridiculous?  to my uneducated mind there would surely be a world of difference between a 3db gain (tillman) and 20db...

[Ben N]

The stock Tillman is configured for a modest 3db boost, but look at Paul Marossy's variation at diyguitarist.com, which is modded for a switchable boost.

[Paul Marossy]

ah, here's a question - regarding the options discussed above, i'm not sure on what actual volume gain they each represent..?  the jfet link clearly states 5db, the tillman is even less at 3db - but i figured i'd be after about 20db given that the clapton board gives a 20db 'midrange' boost...? (note what we want here is a clean boost, not an eq specific one)  can the various boards above be easily modded to provide this level of gain...?  or is 20db ridiculous?  to my uneducated mind there would surely be a world of difference between a 3db gain (tillman) and 20db...

As I have said twice now, if you add a 4.7uF or 6.8uF bypass cap to the Tillman preamp, it will give you a big boost. I'm not sure exactly what it would be in dB, but it's probably in the 20-25dB range.

[tj7]

ah, yes, i did read that, sorry for the double-up! 
so how easy or hard is it to modify one of these things so they can draw from a 12v doorbell-type battery - as has been suggested above?  that would mean less mucking around to fit a standard 9v.  is it feasible my local guitar tech could easily make the changes..?  or is there a very good reason why 9v is the standard for active preamps?

[Quackzed]

70's, i bet it's a stratoblaster , maybee with a little bass cut/maybee flat... jerry garcia had one in his guitar... there werent a ton of boosts back then, not like today anyhow...
you could build a stratoblaster AND a tillman on one pcb and use a 3 way toggle to choose strato-none-tillman...with surface mount parts it could be SMALL

[Ben N]

I can't imagine the difference in tone between a Stratoblaster and a bypassed Tillman is substantial enough to want to squeeze both into your guitar. They're both basically just boosts, you know--they make the signal louder?

(BTW, I finally got around to shielding my "Gus"-boost box today, and boy does that thing boost. Sounds great, too--I think it would satisfy your Summers-craving just fine, but I think its part count is a little higher than the SB & Tillman. In any event, it is well worth building, and the tutorial in the beginners makes it incredibly easy.)

As for the battery, I did look those 12v batteries up, and they are rated at something like 50maH, as opposed to several hundred for an alkaline 9v. I guess this makes sense for a doorbell, since it is used only intermittently for short bursts. The demands of a preamp, even one with low current draw, may be such that you would drain one of those noticeably faster than a 9v, especially if you tend to leave your guitar plugged in. I do recall some prior threads about small battery solutions for onboard use, so make friends with the Search button, and let us know what you find!

[tj7]

here's the schematic for the SD which i mentioned, ie this one: 

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/PASFX/Seymour_Duncan_Pickup_Booster_Circuit.html

schematic:

http://analogguru.an.ohost.de/193/schematics/SeymourDuncan_PickupBooster.gif

here's an informative video with good sound. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xIXw9JIqjk

i believe the preamp circuit above will provide the clean boost as opposed to changing the pickup resonance, which the pedal can do...?    if this is the case, i am fast leaning towards this circuit.  it seems to do pretty much what i want it to, and it's nice and compact.

anyone think i'm jumping towards a bad deal...?

[Gus]

If you look at another forum you can find the E.C. schematic.

  Interesting it has a single 2n6429 first stage.

[tj7]

If you look at another forum you can find the E.C. schematic.

  Interesting it has a single 2n6429 first stage.

yeah i've seen it at tdpri.  thing is, the actual wiring is different in the fender AS tribute though.  this was confirmed by a poster who had a guitar tech contact fender directly about it.  noone knows exacty how the wiring differs though.  no matter for me, i am most likely gonna go with the SD that i posted about, above.  the EC board is bloody huge.  i want to minimise the damage to my tele!

ps if anyone knows where i can find these kind of toggle switches, please point me in the right direction.... they seem to be really hard to find!

http://www.themusiczoo.com/images/8-14-08/Andy_Summers_Tribute_Telecaster_Limited_Edition_Yuruy_Shishkov_YS469_d.jpg

[petemoore]

the amp and speakers, especially the speakers, can be more expensive and troublesome that the boosters.
  You can build 10 and box 1 booster for about 100buxx, I don't know of a 12'' speaker I would recommend, for that price which would match the criterion of 'true to Andy Summers Telecaster'...tonewise.
  With knowing the gauss, tension, wire type, #of turns of the PU's in question would probably be of little help also.
  Train your ear to pick out what is the microphone, room and compressor, what is the speaker and amplifier tone ?...then true to Andy Summers tones may begin to eminate from your:
  Room [very important item for sound sounds]
  PU...there's probably some online info on what is his PU, what is my PU to sound like his, but I really doubt there's a drop in mass production unit...pick something 'close', I have a Baja Tele I love, does nice Tele PU tones, and coil taps make it higher/lower output...very versatile, super sweet.
  Stompboxes, I'd start with stompboxes to more extensively sample, in room, with super quality speakers driven by tube amp...the boosters of various ilk. I get the idea a booster which was available was suggested or sought, and installed...perhaps he actually had a tech look at it and tried a smaller input cap or something. My experience is that any one of these boosts will train you how to play a nice 'boost/edge/amp' tone pretty quickly, especially if thats whatcha got...if you have say 2, 3 or 10 boosters, that one would likely not get the attention it would as your 'one and only'.
  Start with the room and cabinet, amp and PU...booster could be an 8 bukk investment if you hit the 'correct' choice the first time. I'd just go for 'very nice', and 'voiced right', back in the 70's there wasn't a tweeker every 8 blocks, and Guitar Player magazine or other reader/fodder seems a likely source of the schematic from which the booster in question was built from.
  Iow...just a 9v jobby, thrown in a Tele that was worth a very small fraction of what it is worth today, course, would be worth less being hacked up to put a booster in if it wasn't Andys'...that'd be my guess...the booster is just a not too critically consequential addendum to an otherwise super-great guitar setup.
  Probably something like LPB or whatever was off the shelf, and 'can this be installed in the guitar' type question...maybe, if lucky, a touch of repackaging and maybe even a bit of tweeking...I think it was just a thing, available, thrown in, grown to be loved.