Vero or perf? Which is better?

[punkin]

perf for me...if your willing to do a smart layout and do a clean build you can get a nice tight board with really clean results. its what youre used to i guess.

[Taylor]

Well as we're doing gutshots:

Yeah, if my perf looked that neat, I would stick with it. I just find debugging to be an enormous pain with perf, so I'm going to start etching my own PCBs, because I never have to debug PCBs.

The coolest thing about perf for me, which I will miss, is the ability to work directly from a schematic. It's awesome to be able to just look at a schem and do the perf layout as I work through it, without having to find or make a layout. Also, with PCBs and vero, you can't do those crazy 3 dimensional trace arcs curving over each other, but doing that really isn't a great idea anyway.

But I do think it has a lot to do with what you're used to, as others have said. Each method has an associated way of thinking, and once you get into that way of thinking, all others seems much worse.

[oldschoolanalog]

...its what youre used to i guess.

There's something we can all agree on!

[frequencycentral]

Did you clean it or do I need to upgrade my Rad Shack 60/40?

No that hasn't been cleaned at all. I use lead-free solder, 99.3% Sn (Tin), 0.7% Cu (Copper).

Each method has an associated way of thinking, and once you get into that way of thinking, all others seems much worse.

I think that sums it up perfectly.

[jacobyjd]

I think it's interesting that Rick brought up this hell-storm of a topic ( )...since lately I've been thinking about giving perf another go.

I agree with what everyone's saying about having your preferred method for laying down a circuit, and there are pros and cons all around. I'm just thinking of what I can do to break that habit and make myself a little more versatile.

If your life depended on it, could you work with vero? It's kind of an interesting thought...once my workbench is back up and running, I think it'll be time to expand my horizons...

[frequencycentral]

If your life depended on it, could you work with vero?

Jeez I hate stripboard. If the world ever ran out of perf, and all that was left was stripboard, I'd drill a matrix of 1mm holes in my Platinum AmEx card. 

[slacker]

If your life depended on it, could you work with vero?

If it was a matter of life or death and all you had was vero you could just drill out alternate holes along the rows and you'd have some crazy assed perf.
Likewise you could basically do a vero layout on perf if you wanted to, just follow the vero layout and connect components horizontally with component leads and off cuts.

I don't think this topic is any where near controversial enough I think we need to drag the PCBers into it, perf or vero are obviously vastly superior to PCBs. All that press and peel, messing about with noxious substances, drilling and what not.
You could have built and got bored of your new fuzzbox before those boys have even finished preparing their boards 
   

[frank_p]

Anyone ever tried to use wirewrap tool and wire on perf and then solder.  Just wind a couple of turns around the leads, cut and solder ? ( could be advantageous to have firm grip on the leads before soldering and have insulation on a good portion of the wires).  Or it would be more of a PITA that standard perf technique ?  Sometimes I find that perfing is like building boats models in bottles...

So, no one tried this ? No one have an opinion ?

[slacker]

I've never tried it, I've seen it before and it looks like a nightmare to debug.

My brother in law has some sort of of engineering degree, I can never remember what. When he was studying one of his projects was to build some sort of interface board to connect a bunch of sensors to a PC as well as write the software to run it.  He used something like that method and he couldn't get it to work and was running out of time to debug it so in the end he rewrote the software and basically faked it so it looked like the board worked when he had to present it.
He got away with it, and got his degree, worryingly he works on cars now!

[frank_p]

haha. Good story Slacker.  Sometimes I just wonder why, with all the simple fuzz we see on that forum, why we don't see much other prototyping method.  Like you said PCB can be a fastidious method.  Why nobody build a fuzz-face dead-bug style ?  Gus beginner project, free solder style (or hanging garden). Simple and easy to probe around (and thus to study) for a "simple build".  I think the last one I saw was Dragonfly with the stripboard method.  I type this; it's all old knowed methods, but I just can't stop myself from insisting for beginner to stand away from PCBs.  As Frequency-Central said: follow the schematic,  It's invaluable way to memorise (instead of soldering on ready-made PCBs that have traces hidden from the eyes of a learner.

[oldschoolanalog]

I don't think this topic is any where near controversial enough I think we need to drag the PCBers into it, perf or vero are obviously vastly superior to PCBs.

Controversy! Anarchy! Weee!
I like a well made PCB. When somebody makes it for me . However for me...

All that press and peel, messing about with noxious substances, drilling and what not.
You could have built and got bored of your new fuzzbox before those boys have even finished preparing their boards 

Perfectly stated!

frank_p: you are scaring me. What is that on those 2 boards in the photo?

[frank_p]

frank_p: you are scaring me. What is that on those 2 boards in the photo?

Go in peace.  It's not one of my projects.  Just borrowed to illustrate the question I was asking before.  Debugging perfboard is sometimes driving me mad and I was wondering if this could be a better method (could be on smaller projects) than with plain leads.  The usual way of wiring with a wire-wrap is not with solder and I needed a photo to illustrate what I was meaning (just because no one responded: toughted perhaps text was not enough for the reader to understand).

[demonstar]

I never even knew that perfboard had copper on it. I have used a kind of perfboard once but no copper on it. It makes it awkward without the copper to solder to. The board I've used I've had to glue the components to it then make electrical connections. I made a minimum theremin with that type of board. Usually I use stripboard or PCB but even the PCBs have to be hand drawn.

[petemoore]

  It looks rediculous in a way, and in another way, if that is the wiring and the wires are making all the neccessary connections, designing a PCB to do that might be more time consuming, for a one-off prototype.
  If that had to be done twice though Frank, I think planning out a PCB would start to make sense, it looks like it might have to be double sided and still have a few jumpers for that conglomeration of intersections.

[Electric Warrior]

I love vero! It needs a bit of planning beforehand, but I think that's part of the fun - at least with DIY Layout Creator

[oldschoolanalog]

Some very serious vero layouts. From 2 very talented builders:
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/cathexis/Veroboard+Layouts/
Happy soldering!

[frank_p]

  It looks rediculous in a way, and in another way, if that is the wiring and the wires are making all the neccessary connections, designing a PCB to do that might be more time consuming, for a one-off prototype.
  If that had to be done twice though Frank, I think planning out a PCB would start to make sense, it looks like it might have to be double sided and still have a few jumpers for that conglomeration of intersections.

Agree completely, especially if the person design his own PCB.  The new-to-the-hobby (even like me  ) I had in head are the ones that ask (or use without studying) for a preexisting PCB.

The reasoning I had in head is: go over it three times: read the schematic, connect your components and debug it.  For me perf-board offer the best solution vs vero because the "learner" work with the schematic (as F.C. mentioned it).  Any method that is closer to the schematic is a winner unless the learners do their work themselves.  But when you have a PCB already made: this is a very good method for someone to get hooked on DIY: but not on learning.  I also had this in mind because of F.C. complainling about persons asking for layouts.  The best thing a "new-to-the-hobby" can do is wire his own perf-board, freestyle or hanging garden himself.

And thus the idea or wire-wrap on a perf-board.  Do-connections-yourself = DCY = DIY = better insight IMO.

I love vero! It needs a bit of planning beforehand, but I think that's part of the fun - at least with DIY Layout Creator

Exactly: planning is part of the learning process. 

P.S.: My opinions are not directed at the original poster.  The question he ask may be wider than what I am talking about.
EX: Doing your own vero.  (I am thinking about the ADA flanger re-work that had been done lately...)

[davent]

Man oh man life's too short for perfboard and i haven't tried Vero. I love designing PCB's, probably my favourite part of doing a build. Once I've got my design i can have an etched board in hand in half an hour. Don't bother with the toner transfer method use photo sensitized boards. Develop the board in a washing soda (sodiom carbonate) solution then etch in hydrogen peroxide/muriatic acid. No need for noxious exotic chemicals.

Have fun
dave

[appliancide]

If you ever finish and debug your perfboard IMO you will have learned valuable lessons that you can take with you no matter what your next project will be on.

+1

I just picked up one of these to try out...

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102845

Paul

[petemoore]

I love designing PCB's, probably my favourite part of doing a build.
  That is good for you, I wish I'd made a PCB by now, really do.
  Perfboards just great, but when you start getting into larger complicated circuits, it's hard to find point G-9 in the middle of a large board.