Vero or perf? Which is better?

[doitle]

Davent where do you get your photosensitive boards? Also how do you develop them? Do you have a special UV bed for it or use some sort of makeshift light? Do you just drill the holes with a dremel tool or something? I'm really interested as I too love making PCB designs. I've never gotten one made though I've almost sent in orders to BatchPCB and Futurlec to get them fabricated but the fear of it not working coupled with the cost made me chicken out.

[punkin]

its settled then...perf is the best 

[Scruffie]

Lol damn it, I was gunna say it's settled, vero is better, I was just holding out, cause I can last longer being a veroboarder, unlike perfers... 

[Toney]

Well...for me it's Vero.
First as a mini 'crossword puzzle' when doing the layout - fun if you enjoy that sort of thing.
Then the building... as fast as a PCB. I find all the winding ends together just too un-co and slow with perf.
Then the modding. Desolder/resolder done. No unrapping clipping swearing etc

Terminal strip can be good fun too, but that's enough wire wrapping/farting around for me.
So in conclusion, with my most grown up tone...
Vero's great.
Perf sucks. 

[Scruffie]

Amen (from a non religious view) to that toney, vero rocks... Join us rick, joinnn ussss.....  (and all other perf users, us veroers want your layouts)

[Renegadrian]

I am a VERO user too, I think you can use perf for small circuits, and I've done some, but vero lets me do the best, in terms of soldering and laying things out (and my gallery is full of VERO layouts I've done...)

[FlyingZ]

I will definitely go vero if I could get it in a box.  Etched would be my choice if in had a tutor, trial and error is not a valid option yet.

[frequencycentral]

vero rocks... Join us rick, joinnn ussss.....  (and all other perf users, us veroers want your layouts)

I've recently done quite a few perf layouts (using DIYLC of course). It's really easy to then translate a perf layout to a PCB layout just by changing the board properties in DIYLC and replacing the jumpers with track/pads. Likewise, it's very easy to take a published PCB layout and copy it exactly onto perf.

For some projects I've done, I've thought it would be nice to also provide a vero layout, so I've opened up DIYLC and looked at creating a vero, then I've come across all the tricks that I use with perf layouts which are just impossible with vero. I generally give up in horror as the board size doubles in size and I realise there are dozens of track cuts and acres of wasted space. @#$% all those parallel lines! Reminds me of my mum, who doesn't like taking right turns (we drive on the wrong side in the UK of course) at junctions when driving - it's possible to reach your destination using just left turns (maybe?) but the route is convaluted.

I don't understand the 'perfs ok for small circuits' argument, as it seems to me that the bigger the circuit the more of a headache layout is with vero. I think it's the other was round, vero is ok for building a Fuzz Face, but a vero layout for a Phase 180 (the photo I posted is a Phase 180 on perf) would be the size of a small Caribean island - and forget 'stompbox', it would be the size of a guitar case with a freakin 3PDT!

I don't use PCB's because I figure that for one-off circuits the time spend etching and drilling equals the extra time required creating the jumpers with perf. And I'm no chemist either. I've had PCBs made up for Murder One, just because I build a few of them, so it saves time rather than duplicating the perf over and over. As for debugging being difficult with perf, I just don't debug. Time well spent on DIYLC means it's going to work first time anyway.

Case solved: Perfrocksverosucks!

[slacker]

. I think it's the other was round, vero is ok for building a Fuzz Face, but a vero layout for a Phase 180 (the photo I posted is a Phase 180 on perf) would be the size of a small Caribean island - and forget 'stompbox', it would be the size of a guitar case with a freakin 3PDT!

That sounds almost like a challenge sir 

I'd say again it comes down to what you're used to working with. I've seen the argument about vero leading to massive layouts before, and for that particular circuit you might be right but I wouldn't say it's a general rule.
Ages ago I did a vero layout for the rebote 2.5, unfortunately I can't post it because I agreed with Francisco that I wouldn't. At the time there were comments that it would be huge but in fact it's no bigger than the PCB and it's smaller than the perf layout that exists for the circuit.
That's not to say that you couldn't make a perf layout or a PCB that was smaller, but for a circuit that needs a box big enough for 3 knobs, jacks and a stomp the vero layout is plenty small enough.

[Renegadrian]

I don't understand the 'perfs ok for small circuits' argument, as it seems to me that the bigger the circuit the more of a headache layout is with vero.

Dunno Rick, I personally don't like to join components with jumpers, so I can easily make a small low count circuit but would find tedious to build a bigger circuit...I started a RAT using a perf layout, then I gave up, desoldered the components I mounted and tried a more confortable vero layout (the one recently posted, so easy for me...)

It seems that at the end you have to find the good tools for the job...I developed a vero mind, while reading a schem I always think how I could figure it with vero...and then come all my layouts...

[frequencycentral]

. I think it's the other was round, vero is ok for building a Fuzz Face, but a vero layout for a Phase 180 (the photo I posted is a Phase 180 on perf) would be the size of a small Caribean island - and forget 'stompbox', it would be the size of a guitar case with a freakin 3PDT!

That sounds almost like a challenge sir 

Consider the gauntlet thrown down sir! Name your weapon!

....and I'm about to do a perf layout for Echo Base, (is the schematic on page 1 still to one to use?) I should think it will fit comfortably on a 8x20 hole piece of perf!

[slacker]

Going straight for the jugular with the Echo Base, you're striking at the very heart of my vero empire, you swine 

Yeah the schematic on page 1 is correct. On my actual build and the vero layout U3A and U3B are the other way round, so the input buffer uses U3B and the output stage is U3A. If it makes the layout easier you can probably arrange the CD4066 differently as well, it shouldn't make any difference which switches you use.
I'd maybe include the "no tick" mod, or at least leave space for it, in case you need it. It's just a 2u2 electro cap, from pin 7 of U1 to ground.

If I get some time I might have a crack at the Phase 180, I haven't got a phaser and it looks interesting.

[Toney]

A well thought out Vero will have very little wasted space.
Perhaps no more than a PCB if it's done right.

Follow the link for a shameless self -referring example...

http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Toneys-Album/Working_Final333.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Perf?
Oh look now I want to mod it.....
Snip, twist clip...bugger.... hope I don't overheat the actives.... snip...oh shooot not enough lead length left....
Twisty twisty, snippy snippy....

[slacker]

Twisty twisty, snippy snippy....

funny, if I was 12 I'd have said LOL but I'm not so I won't.

Perhaps we need to compromise and try Tripad, the bastard son of perf and vero. At least one person here likes it http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=44838.msg569474#msg569474 

[frequencycentral]

Perhaps we need to compromise and try Tripad, the bastard son of perf and vero. At least one person here likes it http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=44838.msg569474#msg569474 

Hey that's me! I filled eight 100m x 160mm Tripad boards for my modular synth. It's good stuff. I've built a few pedals using it, I've moved to perf because even Tripad sometimes 'makes' you go in one direction when you don't want to, so I've found perf is ultimately better for small tight pedal layouts. Tripad is not supported by DIYLC, but my modular synth was built a few years ago before I discovered DIYLC anyway. When I get round to 'synthing' again I'll use perf. Although Tripad is great when you have plenty of space and lots of ICs, the DIYLC perf support swings it for me.

This is an 8 step analogue sequencer, 4024 clock divider, gate delay and LFO on Tripad. 14 ICs, 16 BJTs. About 10 years old, very messy compared to what I do now. No layout plan whatsoever, just solder and go. Insane really. Still works though!

[davent]

Davent where do you get your photosensitive boards? Also how do you develop them? Do you have a special UV bed for it or use some sort of makeshift light? Do you just drill the holes with a dremel tool or something? I'm really interested as I too love making PCB designs. I've never gotten one made though I've almost sent in orders to BatchPCB and Futurlec to get them fabricated but the fear of it not working coupled with the cost made me chicken out.

Hi Mike,

I use MG Chemicals' boards and developer which i get in a local electronics store. I've also used no-name boards and developer i've picked up in shops in Toronto as well as the various boards from companies in the Digikey catalogue. A city the size of Chicago's gotta have a few shops you could walk into and pick up some board and developer. Digikey (as well as the other suppliers big and small)  has boards from a few different companies but i don't know whether they carry developer. The MG developer is sodium hydroxide. If you google sodium hydroxide pcb developer or sodium carbonate PCB developer you should get some instructions on mixing your own from grocery or hardware store products. 

For exposing the boards i just use regular flourescent tubes. I used to stack up phone books, Digikey catalogs and other tomes on the kitchen counter under the cupboards to raise the boards to within an inch or so of the under cupboard lights. Now,  above my workbench are a pair of 4' tubes recessed between the joists and i've screwed a piece of clear plexglass that was lying around, to the joists so i have a shelf just below the tubes. The PCB's now get exposed on the shelf there.

I use a frameless picture frame from Ikea to hold the transparency/PCB sandwich securely during the exposure which, with the boards i've been using is about 12 minutes.  I print out two copies of the artwork onto a piece of transparency with a laser printer and make a sandwich of those. Before we bought a laser printer i used to take a copy of the artwork to the local print shop and get them to make a copy onto a transparency with one of their uber  photocopiers and with those i only ever used one layer of transparency but with my cheap laser printer i need the insurance of two layers of art.  So expose for 12 minute then into the developer for ~ 90sec's then it's ready to etch. For a developer tray i just use a little dollar store Tupperware type container marked for developer use only. Dollar store would probably have the picture frames as well.

For drilling the holes i use a Dremel in a drill stand and use a set of HSS wire drills from Lee Valley. Have always used HSS drills and have had people tell me you can't do boards with them but I've got thousands of holes that say otherwise. And that being said, last week my brother delivered some carbide drill bits from Drill Bit City that he brought back from south of the border,  look forward to giving those a spin. 

Using ExpressPCB  for doing the schematics and board design.

Take care,
dave

[doitle]

Wow Dave those are some nice looking boards. I actually live in Peoria most of the year, I am at school there. It's about 2 and a half hours south west of Chicago. Down there, there are no electronics shops. The last one that exists, Stewart Radio is now 100% Car Audio. There may be some up in Chicago but I haven't found them yet. I may just try ordering a photo board if they really are that simple. I still need to find a drill or some other method for drilling the holes however. I don't own a dremel sadly. I have a dinky little engraving kit that I use to cut holes in plastic but I doubt it will go through the boards.

[panterafanatic]

i hope you guys dont mind a new guy joining in a little late.. but i cant stand working with perf. never had to work with vero though. kinda new to thing. gonna etch my own shortly. any tutorials anyone recommends? and using pcb express don't you have to order 40 min?

[davent]

i hope you guys dont mind a new guy joining in a little late.. but i cant stand working with perf. never had to work with vero though. kinda new to thing. gonna etch my own shortly. any tutorials anyone recommends? and using pcb express don't you have to order 40 min?

You can just use the free ExpressPCB software to design your stuff then print off your board artwork to either a transparency or some sort of toner carrier and use that to get the design to the copper board. (Need a laser printer or photocopier.) http://www.expresspcb.com/ Software is really easy to learn and it's free! You used to have to jump through hoops to get a printable image but in the last version i downloaded you can now print direct from the software and get a correctly sized perfect piece of art ready for use. There is a good tutorial  on doing the toner transfer method by forum member John Lyons. http://www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html  others  http://www.qsl.net/ve2emm/pcb/pcb2e.html  http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm  http://www.riccibitti.com/pcb/pcb.htm

I found the toner transfer method too frustrating and inconsistent so switched to photo-sensitized boards which are a breeze to do. Others have great success with toner transfer.

Photo Resist  http://www.pcbhobbyist.com/

Some info on PCB design.  http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/files/PCBDesignTutorialRevA.pdf

dave

[trixdropd]

Stunning work dave!! I am gonna look into your method!!