do we really need more expensive parts?

[slim_blues_boy]

sorry if this has been covered before. I tried too look similar topic, but didn't find it (this forum are big).

I've build some Tonebender MKII. I used components that available on local store.
I used yellow and white box capacitors and Rubycon/Mallory/CapXon/Marcon and maybe other brand for electrolytic capacitor (there are lot of brand for electrolytic capacitor). they are cheap caps, no more than 0.05$/piece.
boutique builder usually told that they use high quality parts (aka the expensive one), let say D*A*M, for their MKII they use Ero Vishay metallised polyester film capacitors, and BC components Electrolytic capacitor.

will I get better result if I use more expensive caps? do we really need those expensive parts for better result?

[anchovie]

How does your Tonebender sound at the moment? Does it sound great?

Expensive parts might make a pedal sound different but that's only of any use if someone likes the sound of the pedal with expensive parts in it. If a pedal with cheap parts in sounds awesome, build it with cheap parts.

[slim_blues_boy]

well I'm quite satisfied with sounds of my MKII clone.
and I'm wondering whether it will sound better if I use more expensive parts.
if more expensive parts can make the sounds better, I would try to buy more expensive parts.
my problem, it's hard to get more expensive parts like Vishay caps in my city. maybe I can find it on capital city (but I'm still not sure) or I must buy it from online store.

[anchovie]

You need to define "sounds better". This is just a hypothesis, but if expensive parts cleaned up the sound of your fuzz pedal, does that make it a better fuzz pedal? Some people prefer cheap ceramic caps in distortions, it's all down to personal taste.

[Mark Hammer]

Many of the classic fuzzes we love used the cheapest crap you can imagine.  Is it possible that higher-quality components would optimize some of the things we love about those effects?  Maybe, maybe not.

Your primary concerns when building should be:

a) Do the components used perform the function they are supposed to?
b) Are the components used close enough to the intended values/specs that they should be able to replicate the intended sound?
c) Do the components used fit the available space?
d) Do the components used  provide any measurable or audible improvement  on some generic aspects of signal and sound (noise, battery life, impedance matching, etc.) without detracting in any other way?
e) Do the components used have an acceptable lifespan?

If you have the time and money and patience to fart around with the superstitious aspects, though, be my guest.  My own starting point, however, is to assure that what I'm sticking parts in turns out to be what I was aiming for.  fabulously-touted caps with a 20% tolerance that end up being at the perimeter of their spec might easily detract from the bandwidth needed to produce the intended sound.

[dschwartz]

like Mark, i´m very skeptic about any magic induced by more expensive parts.
although there are some parts that have significant quality differences between brands or prices, most electronic components (as caps, resistors, transistors and such) can be treated as commodities (that means, no really relevant differences between different brands).

The components where price/brand may matter are generally electromechanic. spend your extra cash on good pots, enclosures, switches and jacks. Those components where the quality of the material and endurance under abuse are important.

for caps i avoid ceramic discs for above 1nF,mostly i use ceramic multilayer which are way cheaper than poly´s or mkt´s and perform identically for this kind of applications, and they´re small (a 1uF multilayer is smaller than a soy bean).

resistors..all are practically the same..

[petemoore]

  View the capacitor tests texts and oscilloscope screen pics at GEO for an idea of what 'infanitecimal' might be like for a capacitor in a MkII.
    The option to look elsewhere for discernable tonal variations is suggested.
   Mojo-Poly or other: A1
   Reliable: highly sought after
   Other: for the MkII [heavy distorter] you still want reliable.
   Expensive Mojo ?...-1 IMB, look outside this box for more discernable tonal variations. 

[Mark Hammer]

like Mark, i´m very skeptic about any magic induced by more expensive parts.

Well, there ARE some parts whose quality is undeniable.  What is at issue is often their relevance or added value.

Case in point.  There are plenty of op-amps in the world...more than you can possibly imagine...and they can vary widely with respect to their noise specs.  Happily, there are many reasonably-priced op-amps whose noise specs are a real cut above what was available 20-30 years ago.  There are also much more expensive op-amps whose noise specs are a distinct jump above that, but which cost 3-4 times as much (and often more).

Okay, so imagine you are building ....guess what...a distortion pedal.  And for some reason, you decide to splurge and purchase a pricey op-amp because of its exquisite noise specs.  However, the overwhelming brunt of the noise generated by such a pedal is not internal noise, but rather the noise resulting from taking whatever was at the input, and multiplying that by 200-1000 times.  In other words, it's like using a gold-plated teflon-coated shovel to dig yourself out of an avalanche.  That same op-amp, used in an EQ or better yet, a mic preamp, would be a pretty good or even excellent expenditure.  But in a fuzzbox, just plain dumb.

Second case in point, which I keep harping on here.  A great deal of received folk wisdom about caps comes from the audiophile community.  Some of it is occasionally delusion, but a great deal has substance.  However, the audiophile community deals principally with the processing and reproduction of wide-bandwidth signals that generally incorporate the mixing of multiple instruments/sources.  Having your ears/brain be able to correctly assign harmonic content to the appropriate fundamental source under syuch very demanding circumstances (i.e., lots of sources, lots of harmonics over the entire audible spectrum) requires that there be as little group phase lag as possible.  So, under those circumstances, attention to anything that might compromise the coherence of what reaches your ears is of utmost importance.  If it is in a studio context, even moreso.  Does any of this apply to someone wanking their Epiphone SG into a Tiny Terror or Fender Sidekick15?  Not really.  One signal source, and much less psychoacoustic challenge with respect to the coherence of harmonic content.  If I was a chef at an exclusive restaurant, I might care about the "grain" of a grater that I used to prepare some vegetable for a culinary competition.  But if I'm simply shredding cheese for mac&cheese at home, as long as it grates the cheese and leaves my fingertips out of the meal, it's good enough.  A "better" grater will not improve the meal at all.

The moral of the story is that the virtues and worth of costlier or more exotic components will always depend on the context in which you apply them.  What can be worthwhile in one context can be pointless in another.  Wearing a suit for a job interview may very well improve the experience.  Wearing that same suit to use a public restroom is unlikely to improve THAT experience.

[slim_blues_boy]

The components where price/brand may matter are generally electromechanic. spend your extra cash on good pots, enclosures, switches and jacks. Those components where the quality of the material and endurance under abuse are important.

for caps i avoid ceramic discs for above 1nF,mostly i use ceramic multilayer which are way cheaper than poly´s or mkt´s and perform identically for this kind of applications, and they´re small (a 1uF multilayer is smaller than a soy bean).

resistors..all are practically the same..

actually I think the same. I rather spend more money for high quality jack and pots.
for resistor I use metal film or carbon film, can't find carbon comp in here.

and for caps, I think I should make the tittle for this thread 'do we really need more expensive caps from well known brand' coz what makes me curious is the caps, other parts seems ok for me.

[slim_blues_boy]

  View the capacitor tests texts and oscilloscope screen pics at GEO for an idea of what 'infanitecimal' might be like for a capacitor in a MkII.

could you give me link to those ( capacitor tests texts and oscilloscope screen pics)  .

[slim_blues_boy]

like Mark, i´m very skeptic about any magic induced by more expensive parts.

Well, there ARE some parts whose quality is undeniable.  What is at issue is often their relevance or added value.

Okay, so imagine you are building ....guess what...a distortion pedal.  And for some reason, you decide to splurge and purchase a pricey op-amp because of its exquisite noise specs.  However, the overwhelming brunt of the noise generated by such a pedal is not internal noise, but rather the noise resulting from taking whatever was at the input, and multiplying that by 200-1000 times.  In other words, it's like using a gold-plated teflon-coated shovel to dig yourself out of an avalanche.  That same op-amp, used in an EQ or better yet, a mic preamp, would be a pretty good or even excellent expenditure.  But in a fuzzbox, just plain dumb.

Second case in point, which I keep harping on here.  A great deal of received folk wisdom about caps comes from the audiophile community.  Some of it is occasionally delusion, but a great deal has substance.  However, the audiophile community deals principally with the processing and reproduction of wide-bandwidth signals that generally incorporate the mixing of multiple instruments/sources.  Having your ears/brain be able to correctly assign harmonic content to the appropriate fundamental source under syuch very demanding circumstances (i.e., lots of sources, lots of harmonics over the entire audible spectrum) requires that there be as little group phase lag as possible.  So, under those circumstances, attention to anything that might compromise the coherence of what reaches your ears is of utmost importance.  If it is in a studio context, even moreso.  Does any of this apply to someone wanking their Epiphone SG into a Tiny Terror or Fender Sidekick15?  Not really.  One signal source, and much less psychoacoustic challenge with respect to the coherence of harmonic content.  If I was a chef at an exclusive restaurant, I might care about the "grain" of a grater that I used to prepare some vegetable for a culinary competition.  But if I'm simply shredding cheese for mac&cheese at home, as long as it grates the cheese and leaves my fingertips out of the meal, it's good enough.  A "better" grater will not improve the meal at all.

The moral of the story is that the virtues and worth of costlier or more exotic components will always depend on the context in which you apply them.  What can be worthwhile in one context can be pointless in another.  Wearing a suit for a job interview may very well improve the experience.  Wearing that same suit to use a public restroom is unlikely to improve THAT experience.

very good point  , I agree with you.

[Ibanezfoo]

A great deal of received folk wisdom about caps comes from the audiophile community.

Is this the same audiophile community that couldn't tell difference between a coat hanger and a Super Mega Extra Neet-o Blastomatic 9000+ next gen x2 Audio Phile Quality cable?   

Sorry, just had to throw that in.     I think this stuff is too subjective to listen to what "audiophiles" have to say.  Especially when dealing with instrument audio and doubly so for distortion type devices.

I just throw any old crap into my builds as long as the values are close.  And even if they aren't, if it sounds great, who cares right?  I might have a different attitude if I were mass producing these things.  More for reliability and reproducibility rather than mojo or justification for upping the price.

But then my skills are still weak as I'm still learning.

[Mark Hammer]

The "audiophile community" includes everything from the folks who pay hundreds for wooden control knobs to the folks who author audio engineering texts used in graduate EE programs.  I grew up on "Stereo Review" and "Audio" magazines, both of which were pretty mainstream, and featured writers with a healthy dose of skepticism.  The improvements in sound quality we have experienced over the last 80 years of recorded sound come from those folks.  I think even the old guys like Len Feldman and Julian Hirsch would have been the first in line to say that sometimes parts quality matters, and sometimes it doesn't.

[dschwartz]

all this "part quality" stuff it´s like UFO´s.. you believe, don´t believe or you want to believe...

audiophiles like believeing on their theories because they make them feel special. And if you confront their opinions with facts, they´ll tell you "well, say what you want, i´ve heard it, and it IS different". Con can have a battery of facts about no difference between caps brands (if they are the same material), and no difference between 30cms of oxigen-free-gold-plated-super duper cable and a cheap guitar cable, but they will hear the difference because it makes them feel special..

and oh..what are they paying when they buy Tube-o-lators or 500 bucks filter caps or 2000 bucks wooden knobs, are they paying for gear..no..for sound.. no.. they´re paying to feel like they are special.. at the end it´s a sad, sad story about self esteem and lonelyness.. luckily for snake oil sellers..

[.Mike]

could you give me link to those ( capacitor tests texts and oscilloscope screen pics)  .

It's not at GEO, but I think this is it. It's what was in my bookmarks: The Sound of Capacitors

[Paul Marossy]

could you give me link to those ( capacitor tests texts and oscilloscope screen pics)   .

It's not at GEO, but I think this is it. It's what was in my bookmarks: The Sound of Capacitors

Yep, that's a good reference. As you can see, most of the caps are very similar, except for the low voltage ceramic types which are pretty non-linear.

This also lines up with my experience. The only place that I think I can hear a difference between capacitors is in a tube amp where there is high voltage. In a stompbox, I can't tell the difference at all. Maybe only in certain cases, but most of the time I can hear no difference between different types of capacitors of the same values. If I hear anything at all, which I am always second guessing if I really do or not, it's probably more due to tolerances than the capacitor type. I speak of distortions & OD pedals when I say this.

In fact, one of my best sounding vintage tube amps from 1964 uses only ceramic coupling caps, and it's a GREAT sounding amp. Most tube amp purists would want to pull them out and replace them with Sprague Orange Drops or something, but I ain't touching a thing because it sounds great. It has a crisp, clean tone and when it overdrives a little bit, it sounds really nice.

And as The Hammer said, some of the best sounding pedals used "the cheapest crap" in them, and ceramic caps usually fall into that category.

[slim_blues_boy]

could you give me link to those ( capacitor tests texts and oscilloscope screen pics)  .

It's not at GEO, but I think this is it. It's what was in my bookmarks: The Sound of Capacitors

thanks a lot  .

I will keep using what available around me.
if I find more expensive parts, and have the moneys, I might buy it.
but I wont force myself searching those mojo and expensive parts (except for what I mentioned before, for pots, jack, switch, I think it's better to use high quality one).

[Joe]

Most of the extra cost in fancy parts is for reliability concerns, such as more rugged packages or special coatings for harsh environments. As mentioned, effect have always used crummy parts, so we can use crummy parts too.

[McFuzz]

anybody here use cheap drugstore gas in their car?  come on. good components are like drugs to some people.  ceramic caps have their place,  as do silver micas..orange drops im not sure about . haa. very few t ee's can hear past their visor. some hackers can hear a 3 db cliff.Very,Very talented folks on this forum... better ingredient's=better cake for poppy.

[Taylor]

I think the point of this is mainly for people to differentiate their pedals from the zillions of other identical clones. Rather than design something new and interesting, they can build Yet Another TS/FF/BM, but say "mine has better parts!"